france bans the face veil/burqa

acidphakist, have you ever met a Muslim on a personal level? If so, how did it go?

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:57 PM, Ricky Downtown said:

AHH OH GOD I JUST SHAT MYSELF MAYBE THIS BAN MAKES SENSE

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:52 PM, disparaissant said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:50 PM, acidphakist said:

It'd be even nicer if you'd stop mischaracterizing my argument.

usually that phrase is followed up with "what i'm TRYING to say is..."

but you didn't follow it up with that.

i get your point, it's a cultural minority. fine, whatever. it makes you uncomfortable. i get it. neither of those facts are a good argument for preventative legislation.

but that doesn't erase the fact that you explicitly made those comparisons? i mean if you didn't want that to be your argument, maybe you shouldn't have made fuckin ludicrous comparisons like that?

Let me start from the top:

1) Not everything one culture allows is acceptable in another culture. Example provided: hands cut of thieves, homosexuals stoned to death.

2) "Your argument boils down to conjecture and personal fear." Counter example provided: Handgun bans in Chicago.

3) Full body covering poses security issues EVEN IF NOT BY A MUSLIM RELIGIOUS GARB. I suppose I wasn't explicit about that. And to clarify, these security issues are not my personal fear. Good luck trying to go through customs with your face covered.

haha

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:50 PM, acidphakist said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:46 PM, Iain C said:

I'm not arguing any specific point, just pointing out that your assumption about the nature of french muslims is incorrect. your argument that the 0.003% of french people who wear the veil are so dangerous that it needs to be legislated against is utterly ludicrous. please point out exactly where the danger lies.

 

I've already stated my concerns: security. I personally am not comfortable with anyone running around with their entire body covered, and I'm not alone. I don't think it's an unfair tradeoff for that .003% to simply uncover their face so as to not provide the sorts of cover I mentioned for criminals.

 

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:48 PM, disparaissant said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:46 PM, Iain C said:

I'm not arguing any specific point, just pointing out that your assumption about the nature of french muslims is incorrect. your argument that the 0.003% of french people who wear the veil are so dangerous that it needs to be legislated against is utterly ludicrous. please point out exactly where the danger lies, because I think that what it really boils down to is "I personally am unsettled by it".

jesus, this.

niqab = gun

niqab = stoning gays

niqab = hanging adulterers

ridiculous shit, just say you think it's stupid and move on.

it'd be nice if, in the mean time, you admitted that your personal feelings on it shouldn't have any bearing on the law, but that's not even necessary.

 

It'd be even nicer if you'd stop mischaracterizing my argument.

Muslims have been living in the west quite peacefully for a while now, just because some dickheads fly a couple of jets into the two towers dosnt make millons of people enemy no1 overnight

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:57 PM, Dirty Protest said:

acidphakist, have you ever met a Muslim on a personal level? If so, how did it go?

I'm friends and coworkers with a few that are temperate. I know you'll never believe it but....hahahaha they agree with me.

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:24 PM, Lady kakapo said:

You should always be wary of the politics of victimhood.

You're right. This weird mix of mystical and dogmatic beliefs combined with this desire to play the victim at every opportunity, to the extent that they're 'happy' to wear a shroud of victimhood is truly fascistic and as absurd as wearing lederhosen, a brownshirt and a hat made of bockwurst in Munich in 1933 while wandering around throwing bricks through the local moneylender's window. If you oppose this law you're essentially condoning the murder of six million jews.

It's not a 'gender' or 'minority' issue, again there's a rhetorical sleight of hand going on to paint burqa wearers as victims. It's an idiot issue. The secular beliefs of the Republic supersede in all things the supernatural, the rights of a citizen to conduct their affairs in public and to communicate effectively with other citizens, supersede the absurd.

The sooner the UK gets rid of the blasphemy laws the better. The elevation of 'religious' views above other belief systems is obstinate stupidity. If I didn't hate the French with every bone in my body I'd move there tomorrow.

P.S. I think I've explained my points clearly enough, please feel free to continue on with strawmen and flamebait what have you. It's very amusing and makes my day fly by.

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:59 PM, acidphakist said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:52 PM, disparaissant said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:50 PM, acidphakist said:

It'd be even nicer if you'd stop mischaracterizing my argument.

usually that phrase is followed up with "what i'm TRYING to say is..."

but you didn't follow it up with that.

i get your point, it's a cultural minority. fine, whatever. it makes you uncomfortable. i get it. neither of those facts are a good argument for preventative legislation.

but that doesn't erase the fact that you explicitly made those comparisons? i mean if you didn't want that to be your argument, maybe you shouldn't have made fuckin ludicrous comparisons like that?

 

Let me start from the top:

 

1) Not everything one culture allows is acceptable in another culture. Example provided: hands cut of thieves, homosexuals stoned to death.

 

2) "Your argument boils down to conjecture and personal fear." Counter example provided: Handgun bans in Chicago.

 

3) Full body covering poses security issues EVEN IF NOT BY A MUSLIM RELIGIOUS GARB. I suppose I wasn't explicit about that. And to clarify, these security issues are not my personal fear. Good luck trying to go through customs with your face covered.

1) the minority of women who wear the niqab in france have caused exactly zero problems thus far, and the idea that they deserve a law banning their chosen religious wear is ludicrous

2) in making that comparison, you literally compared a piece of cloth to a handgun, which is just beyond ludicrous

3) people still manage, and the idea that a few thousand french women wearing niqabs on the street is causing some kind of massive security breach is ,again, ludicrous.

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:01 PM, disparaissant said:

 

So there are two types of people who wear the niqab/burqa. Those who choose to, and those who are forced to.

If you choose to, you've now had your freedoms restricted.

If you are forced to, what are the odds you'll actually be able to leave the house now?

exactly.

  On 4/12/2011 at 8:10 PM, Captain James Mission said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:01 PM, disparaissant said:

 

So there are two types of people who wear the niqab/burqa. Those who choose to, and those who are forced to.

If you choose to, you've now had your freedoms restricted.

If you are forced to, what are the odds you'll actually be able to leave the house now?

 

exactly.

yeah i think i'm done with this, this is where i stand on it.

if you're going to be such a big baby that you're scared of someone having the ability to cover their face, i don't know what to tell you.

i mean i love that someone can play both sides of that coin. "IT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL BECAUSE THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH MORE!" and "TRY GETTING AWAY WITH ANYTHING WITH YOUR FACE COVERED!" in the same breath.

wow.

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:57 PM, Ricky Downtown said:

Yes, because a Nazi wearing jackboots made of pastrami and bagels would stop being a nazi. In fact didn't Speer's defence at Nuremburg consist of him wearing a skullcap.

  On 4/12/2011 at 8:12 PM, disparaissant said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 8:10 PM, Captain James Mission said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 5:01 PM, disparaissant said:

 

So there are two types of people who wear the niqab/burqa. Those who choose to, and those who are forced to.

If you choose to, you've now had your freedoms restricted.

If you are forced to, what are the odds you'll actually be able to leave the house now?

 

exactly.

yeah i think i'm done with this, this is where i stand on it.

if you're going to be such a big baby that you're scared of someone having the ability to cover their face, i don't know what to tell you.

i mean i love that someone can play both sides of that coin. "IT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL BECAUSE THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH MORE!" and "TRY GETTING AWAY WITH ANYTHING WITH YOUR FACE COVERED!" in the same breath.

wow.

Again with the name calling. Like I said...if you dare, try and enter the United States with your face entirely covered. I dare you to call the Customs Agent a "big baby".

  On 4/12/2011 at 8:18 PM, acidphakist said:

 

 

Again with the name calling. Like I said...if you dare, try and enter the United States with your face entirely covered. I dare you to call the Customs Agent a "big baby".

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:07 PM, acidphakist said:

 

I'll try and explain it here in small words for you, cheesehead:

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:07 PM, acidphakist said:

 

I'll try and explain it here in small words for you, cheesehead:

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:07 PM, acidphakist said:

 

I'll try and explain it here in small words for you, cheesehead:

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:07 PM, acidphakist said:

 

I'll try and explain it here in small words for you, cheesehead:

  On 4/12/2011 at 8:00 PM, acidphakist said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:57 PM, Dirty Protest said:

acidphakist, have you ever met a Muslim on a personal level? If so, how did it go?

 

I'm friends and coworkers with a few that are temperate. I know you'll never believe it but....hahahaha they agree with me.

All of them agree that their mothers, family and friends should be told what to wear? Youre right, I dont believe you.

Cheesehead is an affectionate term for someone from Wisconsin and I know you didn't realize that, so you're excused.

  On 4/12/2011 at 8:23 PM, Dirty Protest said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 8:00 PM, acidphakist said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:57 PM, Dirty Protest said:

acidphakist, have you ever met a Muslim on a personal level? If so, how did it go?

 

I'm friends and coworkers with a few that are temperate. I know you'll never believe it but....hahahaha they agree with me.

 

 

All of them agree that their mothers, family and friends should be told what to wear? Youre right, I dont believe you.

Oh no, you are mistaken...they don't feel that the "right" to fully cover your body is a big deal.

  On 4/12/2011 at 8:26 PM, acidphakist said:

Cheesehead is an affectionate term for someone from Wisconsin and I know you didn't realize that, so you're excused.

 

 

context is king, man. "i'll explain this in simple terms, *adjective*" is going to cause offense no matter what the adjective is.

plus i hate the fucking packers.

  On 4/12/2011 at 8:23 PM, Dirty Protest said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 8:00 PM, acidphakist said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:57 PM, Dirty Protest said:

acidphakist, have you ever met a Muslim on a personal level? If so, how did it go?

 

I'm friends and coworkers with a few that are temperate. I know you'll never believe it but....hahahaha they agree with me.

 

 

All of them agree that their mothers, family and friends should be told what to wear? Youre right, I dont believe you.

Yes, because all 'muslims' are incapable of having beliefs that don't originate in the arse end of the arabian desert 1,500 years ago.

[quote name='disparaissant' timestamp='1302632917' plus i hate the fucking packers.

OK, *hug* :)

((I really do love you, just SO bored at work))

I don't think this actually solves anything. Will the oppression of women stop because you take away a symptom? I doubt it.

They tried to do (or did) it here in Belgium too with arguments like "you are required to be identified." It's a load of bollocks really. A law like this will never increase security nor will it fix anything. It's not because you ban covering your face people will stop robbing banks. If you're robbing a bank or mugging someone, I doubt you'll be fussed about that stupid law forbidding you to cover your face.

Also this isn't about customs or anything. If cops or customs ask you, you should be able to identify yourself. But completely banning it from the public is an entirely different thing.

  On 4/12/2011 at 8:26 PM, acidphakist said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 8:23 PM, Dirty Protest said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 8:00 PM, acidphakist said:

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:57 PM, Dirty Protest said:

acidphakist, have you ever met a Muslim on a personal level? If so, how did it go?

 

I'm friends and coworkers with a few that are temperate. I know you'll never believe it but....hahahaha they agree with me.

 

 

All of them agree that their mothers, family and friends should be told what to wear? Youre right, I dont believe you.

 

Oh no, you are mistaken...they don't feel that the "right" to fully cover your body is a big deal.

Ha, zing.

But yea, I feel like this argument should've ended at:

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:46 PM, Iain C said:

I'm not arguing any specific point, just pointing out that your assumption about the nature of french muslims is incorrect. your argument that the 0.003% of french people who wear the veil are so dangerous that it needs to be legislated against is utterly ludicrous. please point out exactly where the danger lies, because I think that what it really boils down to is "I personally am unsettled by it".

  On 4/12/2011 at 7:50 PM, acidphakist said:

 

 

I've already stated my concerns: security. I personally am not comfortable with anyone running around with their entire body covered, and I'm not alone. I don't think it's an unfair tradeoff for that .003% to simply uncover their face so as to not provide the sorts of cover I mentioned for criminals.

 

You're right, I'm not comfortable with anyone running around with their entire body covered, and I'm not alone. I also agree, I don't think it's an unfair tradeoff for that .003% to uncover their faces so as not to provide the sorts of cover you mentioned for criminals.

  On 4/12/2011 at 8:28 PM, kakapo said:

Yes, because all 'muslims' are incapable of having beliefs that don't originate in the arse end of the arabian desert 1,500 years ago.

Think the 'all' in both our responses was coming from the same place. Some people respect the weird believes of their families, some dont. I asked him for personal expirience with Muslims, he replied with a bunch of bollocks to reiterate his point.

It's a shame that this has gone from political motivations for banning dresswear to "I'm scared of Muslims". I really don't buy the security angle at all.