is horse meat readily available in your country?

Nevermind.

  On 2/21/2013 at 9:21 PM, luke viia said:

 

  On 2/21/2013 at 9:15 PM, eugene said:

 

  On 2/21/2013 at 8:11 PM, luke viia said:

Oscillik, consider for a moment the relative difficulty of living your own life in the UK, and juxtapose it with that of an indigenous farmer who is forced to turn his land into a monoculture of vegetable oil, ultimately destroying the efficacy of the soil he owns, all in an attempt to not be forced out of business entirely and lose his land. Your cheap food is directly related to his forced lifestyle.

 

This isn't about "I don't have time to cook," it's about the welfare of the planet and other people. I'm poor too. I used to work 10 hour days every week, and on my way home - via public transportation - I would find a way to buy local produce. I was, and am, still part of the problem, because it is a societal problem -- but please don't act like life is just too difficult to personally do the right thing.

 

That said, I don't mean to force a guilt trip on you. But please remember that your cheap food is only possible through false economies that exploit foreign people and land to make your life easier. Adding that thought into the equation should make it a little less easy to eat pre-packaged food that was cargo shipped to you from halfway around the world. Just food for thought - not a personal attack.

so what happens to this strangely colored farmer from an unpronounceable place if his exploiters go bankrupt ?

 

I suppose that depends on whether or not he's altered his land to be suitable for exporting, say, safflower oil, and whether or not the soil has degraded from irrigation, etc. A lot of things could happen (if you'd like to carry this further, perhaps we could choose an actual country and policy to discuss...?).

i was having something more general in mind..is it likely that before the invasion of some multinational corporation that particular farmer had a better income/quality of life ?

though i guess you have to go into specifics with these sorts of questions and take long term into account..

moral high-ground is always going to be relative and i'm sure that there are many people out there for each vegan here, who would find something horrible about the way they live.

Toasted pita bread with huge blob of humus, grilled haloumi and peppers, rocket. 10-15 minutes. Cheaper healthier and tastier than a shitey frozen pizza.

Wash 1 knife 1 plate. Masturbate for 3 hours. Sleep.

  On 2/21/2013 at 8:46 PM, luke viia said:

 

  On 2/21/2013 at 8:44 PM, oscillik said:

it's super awesome that you can manage to cook and clean in such a short timescale (10 mins is for cleaning plates and dishes, not pots and pans included btw). you must be some like, master chef or something.

 

I however, am not.

 

so you can go back to implying that everyone can and should go through this, because it's high and mighty.

 

Look man, I'm trying to be nice here, and all I've suggested is that you spend a bit of time thinking about the world implications of your diet. If thinking about reality is "high and mighty," then color me a douchebag. But I think it's the "I won't budge from my lifestyle" attitude that is truly douchey, so we can end this here if you'd like to just avoid ever thinking about the topic again. I do hope you give it some consideration though.

Stop putting the blame on individuals and their choices, the problems facing the environment are way more systemic than that. The world is being destroyed by capitalist business and persuading Osc to eat aubergine rather than ready meals will not change that. Blaming the working-class consumer for the plight of foreign farmers is, to say the least, fucked.

  On 2/21/2013 at 10:31 PM, keltoi said:

Toasted pita bread with huge blob of humus, grilled haloumi and peppers, rocket. 10-15 minutes. Cheaper healthier and tastier than a shitey frozen pizza.

Wash 1 knife 1 plate. Masturbate for 3 hours. Sleep.

I like to put some chopped/crushed garlic on the pitta with olive oil then grill it for a few minutes, love that with a bit of hummus

Fuck haloumi though, seriously.

"all I've suggested is that you spend a bit of time thinking about the world implications of your diet."

I'm not blaming the working class. I am working class. I am also not absolving intelligent people from responsibility to engage themselves and their legislation to fix things they see as problems. Oscillik doesn't seem to see his food supply as a problem, so I don't expect him to act on it too much. I merely asked him to consider what I was saying.

  On 2/22/2013 at 2:49 PM, Iain C said:

Fuck haloumi

that would be squeaky.

you could always substitute it for some pre-cooked chicken but don't tell the ethical die hards.

  On 2/21/2013 at 8:55 PM, oscillik said:

 

  On 2/21/2013 at 8:46 PM, luke viia said:

 

  On 2/21/2013 at 8:44 PM, oscillik said:

it's super awesome that you can manage to cook and clean in such a short timescale (10 mins is for cleaning plates and dishes, not pots and pans included btw). you must be some like, master chef or something.

 

I however, am not.

 

so you can go back to implying that everyone can and should go through this, because it's high and mighty.

 

Look man, I'm trying to be nice here, and all I've suggested is that you spend a bit of time thinking about the world implications of your diet. If thinking about reality is "high and mighty," then color me a douchebag. But I think it's the "I won't budge from my lifestyle" attitude that is truly douchey, so we can end this here if you'd like to just avoid ever thinking about the topic again. I do hope you give it some consideration though.

I've considered it, along with my work schedule (which means I am travelling to/from work up to a total of 4 hours each day) and it isn't viable for me, as it would cut too much into my free time, like I've already said.

is it viable to move nearer your job? my travel time totals 2.5-3 hours just now so i'm moving nearer my job soon.

It's the squeakiness I distrust. There's something about it that's just severely unpleasant, I feel the same way about paneer, I'm a cheese racist.

  On 2/22/2013 at 3:00 PM, luke viia said:

"all I've suggested is that you spend a bit of time thinking about the world implications of your diet."

 

I'm not blaming the working class. I am working class. I am also not absolving intelligent people from responsibility to engage themselves and their legislation to fix things they see as problems. Oscillik doesn't seem to see his food supply as a problem, so I don't expect him to act on it too much. I merely asked him to consider what I was saying.

If you think that individual consumerist choices and incremental reform can seriously change the nature of the capitalist system, then that's great - but I strongly disagree. In fact by encouraging people to think that they've "done their bit" by making a more enlightened consumerist choice, you discourage them from engaging in forms of political action and organisation that might be far more effective.

use feta?

  On 2/22/2013 at 3:28 PM, Iain C said:

It's the squeakiness I distrust. There's something about it that's just severely unpleasant, I feel the same way about paneer, I'm a cheese racist.

 

  On 2/22/2013 at 3:00 PM, luke viia said:

"all I've suggested is that you spend a bit of time thinking about the world implications of your diet."

 

I'm not blaming the working class. I am working class. I am also not absolving intelligent people from responsibility to engage themselves and their legislation to fix things they see as problems. Oscillik doesn't seem to see his food supply as a problem, so I don't expect him to act on it too much. I merely asked him to consider what I was saying.

 

If you think that individual consumerist choices and incremental reform can seriously change the nature of the capitalist system, then that's great - but I strongly disagree. In fact by encouraging people to think that they've "done their bit" by making a more enlightened consumerist choice, you discourage them from engaging in forms of political action and organisation that might be far more effective.

Again, I'm not sure I ever implied that. I just want people to be aware of the issues, and if they feel it is important, to act in whatever way they can to help resolve the issues. I certainly don't mean to discourage political action.

I'll add that just because this thread is about personal diet and choices (horse meat, do you eat it?), that's where my arguments have been hovering. I don't think personal diet is the most effective way to change the system by any means... but I do want to be part of the thread.

  On 2/22/2013 at 3:31 PM, keltoi said:

use feta?

Honestly I enjoy hummus so much that I don't need cheese to enjoy it. I'm actually a real philistine when it comes to cheese, I don't like anything too soft or at all mouldy either.

  On 2/22/2013 at 3:38 PM, luke viia said:

 

  On 2/22/2013 at 3:28 PM, Iain C said:

It's the squeakiness I distrust. There's something about it that's just severely unpleasant, I feel the same way about paneer, I'm a cheese racist.

 

  On 2/22/2013 at 3:00 PM, luke viia said:

"all I've suggested is that you spend a bit of time thinking about the world implications of your diet."

 

I'm not blaming the working class. I am working class. I am also not absolving intelligent people from responsibility to engage themselves and their legislation to fix things they see as problems. Oscillik doesn't seem to see his food supply as a problem, so I don't expect him to act on it too much. I merely asked him to consider what I was saying.

 

If you think that individual consumerist choices and incremental reform can seriously change the nature of the capitalist system, then that's great - but I strongly disagree. In fact by encouraging people to think that they've "done their bit" by making a more enlightened consumerist choice, you discourage them from engaging in forms of political action and organisation that might be far more effective.

 

Again, I'm not sure I ever implied that. I just want people to be aware of the issues, and if they feel it is important, to act in whatever way they can to help resolve the issues. I certainly don't mean to discourage political action.

 

I'll add that just because this thread is about personal diet and choices (horse meat, do you eat it?), that's where my arguments have been hovering. I don't think personal diet is the most effective way to change the system by any means... but I do want to be part of the thread.

I hear where you're coming from. Osc et al are certainly well aware of the issues now. Obviously I think you put way too much weight on individual choices and very narrow areas of political activity, but that's a problem I have with environmentalism in general. Your heart is in the right place and I don't think you're a knobber

lots of individual choices aimed at specific objective IS political action.

also who in their right minds would want to change the nature of capitalist system ? it works pretty great in the right conditions and when under control.

  On 2/22/2013 at 3:53 PM, Iain C said:

 

  On 2/22/2013 at 3:31 PM, keltoi said:

use feta?

 

Honestly I enjoy hummus so much that I don't need cheese to enjoy it. I'm actually a real philistine when it comes to cheese, I don't like anything too soft or at all mouldy either.

  On 2/22/2013 at 4:27 PM, eugene said:

lots of individual choices aimed at specific objective IS political action.

also who in their right minds would want to change the nature of capitalist system ? it works pretty great in the right conditions and when under control.

First point, yes, it can be. Although in this case it comes nowhere near either addressing the root of the problem or alleviating its symptoms.

Second point - lol.

  On 2/22/2013 at 4:58 PM, Iain C said:

 

  On 2/22/2013 at 4:27 PM, eugene said:

lots of individual choices aimed at specific objective IS political action.

also who in their right minds would want to change the nature of capitalist system ? it works pretty great in the right conditions and when under control.

 

First point, yes, it can be. Although in this case it comes nowhere near either addressing the root of the problem or alleviating its symptoms.

 

Second point - lol.

yes someone should tell eugene about the greatness of communism. it just hasn't 'been tried according to Marx's own ideas' yet, and all that.

Let's not derail this thread by taking it too far into why Marx was right and Eugene is wrong, but the very fact that this large-scale environmental destruction is occurring is proof enough that the capitalist mode of production isn't working "pretty great" at the moment.

Whether you think the solution to this is reforming the system or replacing it with something else, anybody in their "right mind" absolutely should want to change it.

  On 2/22/2013 at 4:58 PM, Iain C said:

 

  On 2/22/2013 at 4:27 PM, eugene said:

lots of individual choices aimed at specific objective IS political action.

also who in their right minds would want to change the nature of capitalist system ? it works pretty great in the right conditions and when under control.

 

First point, yes, it can be. Although in this case it comes nowhere near either addressing the root of the problem or alleviating its symptoms.

 

Second point - lol.

i'd bet that the root of the problem in the eyes of the people advocating such practices most probably isn't capitalism, just particular practices associated with it

secondly, lol at your face.

lol

  On 2/22/2013 at 5:35 PM, Iain C said:

Let's not derail this thread by taking it too far into why Marx was right and Eugene is wrong, but the very fact that this large-scale environmental destruction is occurring is proof enough that the capitalist mode of production isn't working "pretty great" at the moment.

 

Whether you think the solution to this is reforming the system or replacing it with something else, anybody in their "right mind" absolutely should want to change it.

but what does it have to do with the core ideas behind capitalism ? as if soviet communism-totalitarianism was somehow more pro-environmental.

how is it that you guys (eugene, misterE) are somehow making the leap that "changing capitalism" = marxist communism ?

I don't follow. Socialism and capitalism are not mutually exclusive, and communism != socialism.

  On 2/22/2013 at 5:39 PM, eugene said:

 

  On 2/22/2013 at 5:35 PM, Iain C said:

Let's not derail this thread by taking it too far into why Marx was right and Eugene is wrong, but the very fact that this large-scale environmental destruction is occurring is proof enough that the capitalist mode of production isn't working "pretty great" at the moment.

 

Whether you think the solution to this is reforming the system or replacing it with something else, anybody in their "right mind" absolutely should want to change it.

but what does it have to do with the core ideas behind capitalism ? as if soviet communism-totalitarianism was somehow more pro-environmental.

Because the environment is being destroyed in the short-term interests of companies who would profit from it - within the context of a legal/regulatory framework that allows them to do so with impunity.

I didn't say a word about communism, soviet or otherwise. I'm talking about a very clear, obvious and widely-acknowledged failing of the capitalist mode of production as it exists today. You don't need to be a communist to see that.

*hi fives Iain*