The Quinnspiracy Theory, Tropes vs. Women in Video Games & #gamergate

  On 9/4/2014 at 12:01 PM, mcbpete said:

 

  On 9/4/2014 at 10:43 AM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

Anita asks for monthly donations on top of her 160k kickstarter.

 

That's not her twitter handle though ...

 

 

You're right thank you for catching that. Like I said, some of the stuff out there isn't correct.

Damn, if we start posting /v/ infographics this thread will be never ending.

 

Apparently Zoe/Sarkeesian's PR works for an organization that is ultimately linked to DARPA lol

 

By the way adieu, posting those ED links is definitely not gonna help your "cause"

Here's the article on Kotaku in question where Nathan Grayson quotes Zoe Quinn repeatedly as well as another man her exbf "confirmed' via chat logs she was sleeping with. He constantly name drops her game, and he only tells one side of the story. (more info to come he says)

 

http://tmi.kotaku.com/the-indie-game-reality-tv-show-that-went-to-hell-1555599284

 

If you want to see the chat logs they are available.

  On 9/4/2014 at 12:08 PM, ThatSpanishGuy said:

Damn, if we start posting /v/ infographics this thread will be never ending.

 

Apparently Zoe/Sarkeesian's PR works for an organization that is ultimately linked to DARPA lol

 

By the way adieu, posting those ED links is definitely not gonna help your "cause"

 

I've already explained it. If I have to explain it further than there is no reason to talk to anyone in this thread. Just because something contains something nasty that doesn't discredit FACTS. There are FACTS there that I've gone out of my way to show you are FACTS in this thread. So, please with the "nasty stuff on this site so it's all lies" act everyone. Let's talk about FACTS.

Yeah man, I get it, but if the facts are lumped in with mysoginistic images and "lol beating women", it makes it easier for people to dismiss and discredit them

how women are portrayed in some games is the biggest problem in the universe right now

  On 9/4/2014 at 12:15 PM, ThatSpanishGuy said:

Yeah man, I get it, but if the facts are lumped in with mysoginistic images and "lol beating women", it makes it easier for people to dismiss and discredit them

 

I was posting my own post that contained all this information and I spent a couple hours doing it, but I couldn't post it because the image extensions weren't allowed so I had to start over. It's not like that is only place to find this info. It's packaged there for easy consumption. And some of it is wrong. I've checked a lot of it myself though. The problem for me is that we have people in this thread holding their position, posting news articles from "credible" sources that don't discuss important facts, and they using it to support their positions on the matter when they haven't even taken the time to look at the facts. I've even had to correct them on certain things like "nudes images being circulating by jilted boyfriends" when they were in fact this woman's professional pornography pictures. So, when I post something with tons of information on it and it gets immediately dismissed so conveniently as not credible when it is credible, and I've just proven it then I feel very frustrated, and I do not feel like the other people are even entertaining the idea that this stuff is true.

 

I'm not even trying to argue against feminism. I think feminism is important. I think better writing and more diverse experiences are important. I'm just showing you that the people you are supporting, and the controversy that has been created around them seems to be false. And it seems to only serve to enrich the very people who claim to be the victims.

  On 9/4/2014 at 12:20 PM, Barung said:

how women are portrayed in some games is the biggest problem in the universe right now

 

 

You're right. why the fuck am I even here doing this...

wow, i had no idea zoe quinn was the developer for that shitty game depression quest. i read over the ED articles. already knew most of the info on sarkeesian but i didn't even bother to do anything other than scan the zoe quinn page.

 

it seems, on the whole, like stupid teenage drama that's been publicly broadcasted on twitter. rest assured, zoe quinn's five minutes of fame will soon be over since she doesn't have any real talent other than drumming up publicity (apparently her game has horrible writing, glitches, poor sound design, etc.).

 

here's something that bothers me about women in gaming. the bar seems to be set so low for us. for example, depression quest got a ton of press a couple of weeks ago about being groundbreaking and all that, but apparently it sucks. it's really patronizing when people assign a higher value to a product made by a disadvantaged person because of some sort of "well, at least they tried" attitude, or not wanting to seem sexist/racist/whatever, or not wanting to hurt feelings.

 

that more than anything makes me feel like i'm not equal to men. i don't want my works to be judged on a scale that's different than what my male peers get. that's bullshit. society doesn't need to "curve my score" to make me feel better for past inequalities, fuck that! women need to be criticized just as harshly as men, because if we aren't, the idea that we're somehow mentally weaker persists.

LOL.

 

It's this stuff that put me off going on forums, even the anonymous ones. Everybody has a fucking crusade. It's incredibly tiresome. I've never heard a single person in the real world make an issue out of this stuff, it's an internet frenzy.

 

Games journalism is just shit and it's it's entirely possible that AS is a twat AND the people hating on her are twats. Sadly they both contribute to the issue and make it harder to find the signal in the noise.

^ Pretty much

 

By the way, Depression Quest should be called Choose Your Own Adventure: Sad Day, cause that's what it is. At least it's free

Playing video games 24/7 will contribute in some way towards awkward social retardation, if done correctly.

 

I think the escapism video games offer can form an ideal world that a person would rather fantasize about than adjust to the one we live in. It causes all kinds of weird fetishes and shit. On the real.

^works cited: Tooting My Own Horn: The Life and Times of an Ocarina of Time Speedrunner by Candiru

Zoe Quinn False Flag.

 

https://archive.moe/v/thread/261371267/#261372435

 

Thread isn't even about her, and the post is inserted anyway.

 

Zoe screen grabs it and posts it on twitter.

 

https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/507097470854131713

 

The only thing she shows is the one post. She does not include a link to the thread, and she does show that all the replies literally say "fuck off"

  On 9/3/2014 at 7:08 PM, autopilot said:

This Guardian article sums up everything quite succinctly and fairly objectively (imo), and isn't a games blog:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/03/gamergate-corruption-games-anita-sarkeesian-zoe-quinn

 

This Brietbart article is the only thing I could find that argues in favor of the "other side":

 

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/01/Lying-Greedy-Promiscuous-Feminist-Bullies-are-Tearing-the-Video-Game-Industry-Apart

 

^^ While it seems to largely exist as clickbait for a blogger who's seen the #GamerGate hashtag trending, I felt I'd post it just for the sake of repping some alternative view of the events. The irony I see is that one of the main criticisms of Sarkeesian is that she's an outsider non-gamer (debatable) just trying to get attention & internet fame, while the same people spouting those crticisms are championing this admitted outsider non-gamer's article because it agrees with them.

 

 

Guess what story also got run by the guardian.

(it's linked at the bottom of the article you posted)

 

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/01/how-to-attack-a-woman-who-works-in-video-games

 

 

 

 

http://www.patreon.com/jennfrank?ty=p

Edited September 4, 2014 by AdieuErsatzEnnui

Fantastic but big long chat about this whole thing here (not just the Zoe Quinn thing but the whole game corruption shenanigans that's become so big of late) -

 

 

From 27:50 - 1:06:20

 

  On 8/27/2014 at 7:15 PM, autopilot said:

AdieuErsatz fighting the good fight against those horrible people so concerned with social justice they've earned the term being used as a pejorative. See if you can guess which one in the video is him...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROHvvtUcp8I

I had no idea how bloody bat shit insane this guy was until the above video !

  On 9/4/2014 at 1:20 PM, Hoodie said:

wow, i had no idea zoe quinn was the developer for that shitty game depression quest. i read over the ED articles. already knew most of the info on sarkeesian but i didn't even bother to do anything other than scan the zoe quinn page.

 

it seems, on the whole, like stupid teenage drama that's been publicly broadcasted on twitter. rest assured, zoe quinn's five minutes of fame will soon be over since she doesn't have any real talent other than drumming up publicity (apparently her game has horrible writing, glitches, poor sound design, etc.).

 

here's something that bothers me about women in gaming. the bar seems to be set so low for us. for example, depression quest got a ton of press a couple of weeks ago about being groundbreaking and all that, but apparently it sucks. it's really patronizing when people assign a higher value to a product made by a disadvantaged person because of some sort of "well, at least they tried" attitude, or not wanting to seem sexist/racist/whatever, or not wanting to hurt feelings.

 

that more than anything makes me feel like i'm not equal to men. i don't want my works to be judged on a scale that's different than what my male peers get. that's bullshit. society doesn't need to "curve my score" to make me feel better for past inequalities, fuck that! women need to be criticized just as harshly as men, because if we aren't, the idea that we're somehow mentally weaker persists.

thank you for putting into words what I wanted to say, but doing a damn better job than I could've done.

I think this is less about the quality of her games (of which I thought Depression Quest was an interesting diversion though was more just a 'choose your own adventure' flash project you'd do at uni, and no idea why it was then plugged for Steam release) and more about the crazy leaking of personal information, death threats and just general misanthropy seemingly entirely because it's been voiced by a female. That's certainly my take on the whole thing anyway.

  On 9/4/2014 at 8:52 PM, mcbpete said:

I think this is less about the quality of her games (of which I thought Depression Quest was an interesting diversion though was more just a 'choose your own adventure' flash project you'd do at uni, and no idea why it was then plugged for Steam release) and more about the crazy leaking of personal information, death threats and just general misanthropy seemingly entirely because it's been voiced by a female. That's certainly my take on the whole thing anyway.

 

What was voiced by a female exactly?

Sorry mixed up the the two things, meant "seemingly entirely because it's been created by a female" in Zoe's case for making her game, and "seemingly entirely because it's been voiced by a female" in the case of Anita Sarkeesian's Tropes videos

  On 9/4/2014 at 11:16 PM, mcbpete said:

Sorry mixed up the the two things, meant "seemingly entirely because it's been created by a female" in Zoe's case for making her game, and "seemingly entirely because it's been voiced by a female" in the case of Anita Sarkeesian's Tropes videos

 

So following that logic then every game ever made by a female would not be accepted by the gaming community, and there would be a controversy surrounding it? Also, any woman critiquing games would also receive the same treatment?

  On 9/4/2014 at 8:52 PM, mcbpete said:

I think this is less about the quality of her games (of which I thought Depression Quest was an interesting diversion though was more just a 'choose your own adventure' flash project you'd do at uni, and no idea why it was then plugged for Steam release) and more about the crazy leaking of personal information, death threats and just general misanthropy seemingly entirely because it's been voiced by a female. That's certainly my take on the whole thing anyway.

^^ hit the nail on the head. If this was really about rooting out "corruption in games journalism", then where was the #GamerGate movement when Gamespot fired Jeff Gerstmann over his Kane & Lynch review? (or any of the other obvious instances of media being sponsored & coddled by publishers for favorable reviews over the last decade & a half) Why is this level of outrage only now arising because it involves two vocal feminists in the gaming industry?

 

In related news, multiple female games writers labelled 'SJWs' by the 4chan anonymous hate machine have now quit/resigned, saying the nonstop daily death & rape threats resulting from the targeted efforts of #GamerGate aren't worth it. I'm anxiously awaiting Encyclopedia Dramatica to offer the other side of the story, explaining how they're "crybaby feminazi cunts who belong in the kitchen" and screencapping multiple weeks of Tweets complaining about their harassment @mentions & claim they're making them up.

 

Also, in response that Thunderf00t "Busted" video, this has arisen rebutting his criticism of her criticism of Hitman:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wkd_KR55sE Morgan Webb reviewing games on TV since 2003.

 

Talks about her experiences with someone trying to push her into saying something negative based on her gender.

 

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2007/12/10/women-working-in-games-g4s-morgan-webb-talks-x-play-and-being-a-pin-up/ <<< 7 years old

 

Multiplayer: Do you think it's harder for women to break into the industry?

Webb: I don't think so. I think if a woman comes in with good credentials, strong writing skills and a visible passion for [gaming], I think she's going to have an advantage. I think employers recognize that hey, it's probably good to have some women in here. [laughs]

Multiplayer: Why do you think that there are so few women right now though?

Webb: I think it's changing. You do see a lot of women now at the conventions. You see these women coming up, and I think in five years, it's not going to be me and one other woman in the room. It's going to be a lot.

Multiplayer: Why do you think that the gaming press and gamers in general focus on women the way they do?

Webb: Because boys like girls, straight up. Because Nerd #14 getting hired at Kotaku; not a story. Hot chick? Story. You talk to her about why they're a woman in the gaming industry. Guys all think, "Wow, wouldn't it be great if there were more? Even though she'd veto my triple-X busted woman that I want to put in this video game." [laughs]

Jade Raymond - Managing director of ubisoft toronto

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Raymond

From the same interview:

 

  Quote

Multiplayer: Does it feel odd being the object of desire by so many people, especially gamers?

 

Webb: You know, when you don't read the forums,you don't really think about it. If you don't really interact with fan sites and that kind of thing, then you just kind of live your life. Which is good. I don't want to constantly read fan forums and find people who think I'm "hot" or something because then that's not a normal life. I feel like you can't really live like that because then your entire ego is going to be wrapped up in what random people think of you and what forum you land on that day because half the forums are going to be like "She's dumb and she has ugly hair" or something. People are just going to write how your hair was ugly that day or how your outfit was stupid or how you look fat or whatever and it's like, you know what? I'm trying, I'm working really hard, and I'm putting myself out there.

Yep, sounds like she's treated completely fairly based on her gender

There's multiple segments in that interview where she mentions online harassment and people questioning if she's a "real gamer" because she's a woman, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by posting it. Is it that some things never change?

  On 9/4/2014 at 11:24 PM, autopilot said:

 

  On 9/4/2014 at 8:52 PM, mcbpete said:

I think this is less about the quality of her games (of which I thought Depression Quest was an interesting diversion though was more just a 'choose your own adventure' flash project you'd do at uni, and no idea why it was then plugged for Steam release) and more about the crazy leaking of personal information, death threats and just general misanthropy seemingly entirely because it's been voiced by a female. That's certainly my take on the whole thing anyway.

^^ hit the nail on the head. If this was really about rooting out "corruption in games journalism", then where was the #GamerGate movement when Gamespot fired Jeff Gerstmann over his Kane & Lynch review? (or any of the other obvious instances of media being sponsored & coddled by publishers for favorable reviews over the last decade & a half) Why is this level of outrage only now arising because it involves two vocal feminists in the gaming industry?

 

In related news, multiple female games writers labelled 'SJWs' by the 4chan anonymous hate machine have now quit/resigned, saying the nonstop daily death & rape threats resulting from the targeted efforts of #GamerGate aren't worth it. I'm anxiously awaiting Encyclopedia Dramatica to offer the other side of the story, explaining how they're "crybaby feminazi cunts who belong in the kitchen" and screencapping multiple weeks of Tweets complaining about their harassment @mentions & claim they're making them up.

 

Also, in response that Thunderf00t "Busted" video, this has arisen rebutting his criticism of her criticism of Hitman:

 

 

 

Proving someone is dishonest shows they are not credible. Credibility is based on the fact that you can be trusted. It's not an ad hominem if you are falsifying information that is supporting your position which she very clearly did, and this video doesn't even deny it. They merely try to spin the argument so that falsifying information, and consciously omitting information isn't credibility destroying but is instead an ad hominem. It is not. She did misrepresent the game, and it is very clearly explained in thunderfoot's video how she did it, and this video does nothing to rebut what thunderfoot said.

 

Trying to spin the fact that the score doesn't matter and is not disincentivizing is a huge stretch and it is objectively wrong. Games have scores so that you can have a goal with which to compare your own performance, and other gamers performance. The in-game HUD, that is, Heads Up Display, is designed to be generally as unobtrusive as possible while still displaying the necessary information to the gamer. Many HUD's are able to be changed in size based on the players preference or need. The reason the HUD doesn't cover the entire screen, or even half of it, is because it would make the game hard to actually play and enjoy. The game does however show you in full screen your score, and a detailed read-out of what led to it based on your actions when you finish the mission. You also are rewarded with unlocks based on your having a high score. Even more incentive not to kill innocent people.

 

 

HIs argument is merely an acknowledgment of what thunderfoot said as true, but attempting to assert that it "isn't enough". Even though he leaves out relevant information I've kindly attached. It's also risky if you've ever played any of the games to kill anyone at all, because you have to hide their bodies or risk failing the mission, and if you alert people you aren't able to get the highest possible score.

 

Selections Bias is just ridiculous because he provides no counter evidence. He's saying that thunderfoot's evidence is not good enough without providing his own selection at all. Actually, I'm wrong, he does provide a selection, and the one he chose shows the player (a male) not hurting the women. And the player even comments that the dialogue has conveyed to him the message that these women are "not in the best of circumstances". Hmmmmm.....I wonder if that is the developers attempting to provide the player with more motivation for wanting to kill their target (who I assume is the person being talked about because well games are like that) by helping them justify the fact that he is a bad person who treats women badly. Basically, the message from the developers reinforcing the standard in society that hurting women is bad.

 

It does matter where the footage came from because she says "the player cannot help but treat these female bodies as things" but actually the player can help themselves and often do help themselves and they do not hurt the women. That is why she had to make the footage instead of stealing without crediting anyone like she normally does. Because presumably she could not find good enough footage to support her argument without creating it herself. Shit, I just walked into the crux of Thunderfoot's argument. Probably because it's disincentivized by the scoring and reward system mechanics built into the game by the developers. I couldn't tell you exactly why you get points back for hiding bodies after you've killed someone, but it isn't determined by sex it merely happens to be women in this example. You would have to ask the developers. Maybe they wanted to make the game easier so that it would appeal to a larger audience. So, if you screw up and have to kill someone to complete your objective then you can at least save some points by doing a hitman's job properly and not getting caught. That being said, you cannot in my experience kill all the civilians and hide all of them so it is still disincentivized, but you are given some room for error as far as scoring is concerned. I don't see how that encourages killing. It still doesn't help the player score the highest possible score, and it would force the player to go out of their way and risk failing to actively start harming people. Just because something is available to be done in a game does not mean it is intended or encouraged. Notice in my example the player still lost points even though he hid bodies because he obviously killed more than he was able to hide.

 

He then goes on to say that Thunderfoot mispoke when he said, "she states it is invited and encouraged". And then she says exactly that. It's "invited...and implicitly encouraged." But if you want to argue semantics about implicit encouragement I would say that implicit encouragement would be a very weak form of encouragement, and it's proven false that it is implicit because the mechanics are designed to discourage you from killing civilians. Both male and female. There are also strippers in the strip club because it is a strip club, and well strip clubs are populated by strippers.

 

The next argument about Watchdogs is just false. Being too weak to help yourself entirely and needing help does not mean you are an "object". I'd like to add that all elements of games are actually objects, because they are designed in a virtual game and therefore must be. But from a sociological perspective needing someone's help through an unfortunate circumstance does not make one an object. Yes, these women are being objectified in the game. But not buy the player. They are being objectified by the other elements of the game to create a narrative that compels the player to want to help them out of their bad situation. They are not on display for the player because he is not purchasing them. He is there to help free them. He is not acting upon them. He is acting in their favor. If anything this game is helping the player to experience the horror of sex trafficking and then using game mechanics to compel the player to help.

 

 

These examples might be profane or unwarranted if they were impossibly fantastic and held no bearing on reality, but these situations are things that are happening everywhere in the world. I'd also like to add that in both situations the women are not even nude.

 

And in regards to the research, if it were true that media exposure influences behavior so profoundly then wouldn't the rates of rape and murder be steadily increasing as our exposure to these mediums increases exponentially as it has? Even access to violent pornography is at an all time high in human existence, and it is arguably the most objectifying media that someone could consume. Yet, we have these.

 

 

And what about the profound effect that these objectifications are having on the way males view and treat women? Shouldn't they being getting raped more then?

 

Except,

 

A 1997 report by the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, which defines rape as forced penetration by the offender,^[239] found that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male.^[240] However, when prison rapes are included in the statistics it has been reported that, according to the U.S. Department of Justice, "...more men are raped in the U.S. than women... In 2008, it was estimated 216,000 inmates were sexually assaulted while serving time... compared to 90,479 rape cases outside of prison." ^[241]

 

Then we have murder rates still declining overall despite fluctuations in important factors like wealth and prosperity.

United States^[73][74] 5.5 5.6 5.6 5.7 5.5 5.6 5.7 5.6 5.4 5.0

And intimate partner violence declining faster for women than men.