French mag Charlie Hebdo attacked by gunmen, 12 dead

  On 1/21/2015 at 8:06 AM, Allize said:

 

  On 1/21/2015 at 7:59 AM, Lane Visitor said:

 

 

  On 1/21/2015 at 7:52 AM, Allize said:

The quenelle is the most obvious and popular example of the provocation through ambiguity that I was talking about. It is essentially a scatological sign, meaning to put the hand through an ass (he even has a scale for how deep he puts it) and at the same time it's the reverse of the nazi hand sign, which, logically, conveys automatically the opposite message (It even gets a hand crossing it) so it can't objectively be said to be an anti-semitic gesture because of that. Of course, It was developed after he started all this fuss, so it is a consequence.

All contexts/background aside, the dude's show is centered on jews/ jewish lobby / zionist/jewish "power" and those are his most popular topics....... The dude's most popular branding of his ideas & mission is A REVERSE NAZI SALUTE which encourages to spread as code to say "fuck authority"... The "authority" he speaks of in his skits is... JEWISH POWER! It's pretty simple to put together.

I aldready wrote about that... Honestly for now I'm a bit tired of defending dieudonne, I'm not paid for this. I just like things to be neat. To clarify I'm not jewish, muslim, or french. To me sometimes he's not funny at all, there's a lot of sketches I don't like, sometimes he goes too far (to my sensibility) and I prefer if he didn't insist soo much on those topics you mentioned, but it doesn't take away his talent, his merits and his legitimacy to respond with his own weapons to those who harmed him. I can understand why he does it from his perspective. He takes a lot of heat, he must take cortisone shots in the morning. He probably never goes through a day without fear of being shot and assaulted.

Oh man... I thought you were reading what I typed. You made up your mind but I respect that. Otherwise we're walking in circles. Just hope you understand why I feel offended for being called a racist, a negationist or anti-semite just for sharing this opinion.

there is for sure hypocrisy in celebrating someone who publishes this:

and then arresting dieudonne for his tweet.

  On 1/21/2015 at 8:15 AM, Allize said:

Oh man... I thought you were reading what I typed. You made up your mind but I respect that. Otherwise we're walking in circles. Just hope you understand why I feel offended for being called a racist, a negationist or anti-semite just for sharing this opinion.

I personally dont know you so i wouldnt judge you as a person, but rather judge your posts, which i think seems to be the status quo of fair play here on watmm unless of course someones attacking someone or bullying or spewing straightforward hate speech.

Debate if far more effective in person.

Tone/intention/body language etc are lost over the internet/digitally mediated communication.

I bet most of this conversation would go over quite easygoing over a few pints and some appies.

Not to minimize the situation of course...

  On 1/21/2015 at 8:36 AM, Lane Visitor said:

 

  On 1/21/2015 at 8:15 AM, Allize said:

Oh man... I thought you were reading what I typed. You made up your mind but I respect that. Otherwise we're walking in circles. Just hope you understand why I feel offended for being called a racist, a negationist or anti-semite just for sharing this opinion.

Ya lets just agree 2 disagree. Of course no one wants to be called those things... But to casually all of the sudden bring up holocaust revisionism as something that should be looked into then several posts later defending the character of someone like dieudonne is naturally going to raise concern in the bigotry department by some people in this forum, and i dont blame them.

 

  On 1/21/2015 at 8:40 AM, StephenG said:

Debate if far more effective in person.

 

Tone/intention/body language etc are lost over the internet/digitally mediated communication.

 

I bet most of this conversation would go over quite easygoing over a few pints and some appies.

 

Not to minimize the situation of course...

 

  On 1/21/2015 at 8:36 AM, Lane Visitor said:

 

 

  On 1/21/2015 at 8:15 AM, Allize said:

Oh man... I thought you were reading what I typed. You made up your mind but I respect that. Otherwise we're walking in circles. Just hope you understand why I feel offended for being called a racist, a negationist or anti-semite just for sharing this opinion.

Ya lets just agree 2 disagree. Of course no one wants to be called those things... But to casually all of the sudden bring up holocaust revisionism as something that should be looked into then several posts later defending the character of someone like dieudonne is naturally going to raise concern in the bigotry department by some people in this forum, and i dont blame them.

"I personally dont know you so i wouldnt judge you as a person, but rather judge your posts, which i think seems to be the status quo of fair play here on watmm unless of course someones attacking someone or bullying or spewing straightforward hate speech. "

  On 1/21/2015 at 8:36 AM, Lane Visitor said:

 

  On 1/21/2015 at 8:15 AM, Allize said:

Oh man... I thought you were reading what I typed. You made up your mind but I respect that. Otherwise we're walking in circles. Just hope you understand why I feel offended for being called a racist, a negationist or anti-semite just for sharing this opinion.

Ya lets just agree 2 disagree. Of course no one wants to be called those things... But to casually all of the sudden bring up holocaust revisionism as something that should be looked into then several posts later defending the character of someone like dieudonne is naturally going to raise concern in the bigotry department by some people in this forum, and i dont blame them.

 

I personally dont know you so i wouldnt judge you as a person, but rather judge your posts, which i think seems to be the status quo of fair play here on watmm unless of course someones attacking someone or bullying or spewing straightforward hate speech.

 

Just a final note on that revisionist part though. I'm not an apologist of holocaust revisionism, so instead of "should" i'd place "could" in that sentence.

I defend the possibility, rather than the act itself.

  On 1/21/2015 at 7:53 AM, xox said:

 

  On 1/21/2015 at 3:55 AM, usagi said:

 

  On 1/20/2015 at 6:18 PM, xox said:

 

  On 1/20/2015 at 8:58 AM, Phoenis said:

islam muslim community needs a reformation but it has to come from within the muslim community

 

 

yeah, but the problem also lies partly in certain aspects of religious practice which are out of touch with the modern world. the practices and philosophies of Islam themselves need development, one cannot expect that a 7th century desert way of life will continue to apply perfectly to the life of a 21st century city dweller.

 

 

examples, please

 

I can only speak with authority about my experiences.

there is nothing in the Qur'an or the sayings or the Prophet on how to deal with the inner emotional turmoil and confusion caused by the things that occur in the course of present-day life. all the worries, fears, anxiety, hopelessness, placelessness, purposelessness - there is nothing written in Qur'an that provides guidance or solace for these problems, other than "pray more, God will show you the way". and these are the problems that unwittingly end up dominating our lives, steering our development as human beings in one direction or another. so if you have no guidance, what happens to you? you become an emotionally stunted person, which of course then leads you to being less successful in many other spheres of your life: relationships, family, career, etc. which then adds to your baggage/angst more and then it becomes a feedback loop and you're just stuck in a circle of shit, forever.

some people are unlucky enough (or lucky enough, depending on how you look at it) to never realise that this is what is happening to them. I have met many devout people who lead miserable lives and just think it's their fate as decreed by God, instead of demanding something better, striving for a better way of life.

so: my argument is that without further development - and that is what I take "reformation" to be, not drastic revision but further development - of the basic principles of religions that were born centuries ago in completely different times and completely different worlds, people will find no help in said religions. what I've learnt, not just about religion but any ideology, is that if it stops working for you, you have to break from it instead of martyring yourself for it. of course this means that you may never end up standing for anything concrete and just live in a morally relativistic fog for the rest of your life... but isn't that the nature of the world?

I'll give you a more concrete example in case all that didn't make sense to you: the subject of music in Islam. it's a contentious subject. orthodox opinion is that anything except for just vocals+drums is a problem and should be avoided. there aren't even any fully clear reasons as to why, but I suspect it's kind of the same reason behind prohibiting alcohol/drugs, in that it affects your emotions and clarity of thought, and it is best to maintain total clarity of thought in order to be communing with God at all times. it's not a really strict law in orthodox Muslim belief because many Muslims still enjoy their pop or rap or whatever, but it is a thing nevertheless.

so as music fans on WATMM, I'm fairly sure we all have strong opinions about music and why it's good for us and very much desired in our lives. it brightens life. I certainly don't want to give it up. it has proven more of a solace to me than any holy writings or religious discussion. you see the paradox? religious doctrine aims to dictate all life (it does so in Islam for sure, Christianity is different with its allowing separation of church and state etc) yet it cannot be there for you where good music can.

I haven't in all my time come across any proper discussion between clerics of things like this, and that's because there's a certain laziness/unwillingness to develop further.

  On 1/21/2015 at 8:40 AM, StephenG said:

 

Debate if far more effective in person.

 

Tone/intention/body language etc are lost over the internet/digitally mediated communication.

 

I bet most of this conversation would go over quite easygoing over a few pints and some appies.

 

Not to minimize the situation of course...

So much this.

I can't believe the amount of insults in this thread. Useless silliness and arrogance.

  On 1/21/2015 at 9:09 AM, usagi said:

there is nothing in the Qur'an or the sayings or the Prophet on how to deal with the inner emotional turmoil and confusion caused by the things that occur in the course of present-day life. all the worries, fears, anxiety, hopelessness, placelessness, purposelessness - there is nothing written in Qur'an that provides guidance or solace for these problems, other than "pray more, God will show you the way".

 

not sure i agree with you there. after a relatively quick search i found quite a bit of guidance on this with reference to the Koran and the Prophet.

http://www.iqrasense.com/muslim-character/managing-the-pain-and-pleasure-of-relationships.html

https://islamgreatreligion.wordpress.com/2009/03/09/10-tips-to-fight-depression/

http://theislamicworkplace.com/stress/

http://www.missionislam.com/health/stress.htm

that's all, again, pretty paltry.

I have read the Qur'an twice over, and numerous sayings and conversations between the Prophet and his Companions, and the most insightful any advice on such matters gets can be boiled down to:

- pray some more, God will answer you

- be a good person, people will be good back to you

- don't do bad things, Satan will drag you to Hell

that's pretty much what I'm seeing reiterated in those articles again. the third link in particular contains a lot of prayers for stressful times, which can reassure you so long as you have faith... however when you keep praying and nothing changes, your faith erodes and pragmatism takes over.

I can say from my experiences that no such strategies worked for me, and I left faith slowly and agonisingly as I progressively realised this. I didn't want to leave it, but it was increasingly obvious that there was nothing there that could really help.

edit: also there are countless glib, empty scribblings on the Net concerning religious discussion of subjects like these which simply don't size up to the actual problems they're trying to speak to. you learn to be wary of them, even as a faithful person.

this is pretty much the same as any religion though.

  On 1/21/2015 at 7:33 AM, Allize said:

 

  On 1/21/2015 at 6:47 AM, chenGOD said:

Oh and by the way, while I think Dieudonne and his ilk are reprehensible, unfortunately they still have the right to say that shit.

When they start talking about promoting actual killing of Jews, that's when the shit needs to get cracked down upon.

Let me help you: He doesn't.

Right, I never said he did.

It's fairly obvious he doesn't like Jews, and he says dome foul shit about them. To me, using "the other" as a base for humour is a cop-out. It appeals to all the base instincts of man. So I don't see him as courageous at all.

I don't think Charlie Hebdo is particularly courageous either, just to clarify.

  On 1/21/2015 at 1:17 PM, IrisAndTheLens said:

this is pretty much the same as any religion though.

right, probably. but I'm talking about the only one I really know.

  On 1/21/2015 at 1:58 PM, usagi said:

 

  On 1/21/2015 at 1:17 PM, IrisAndTheLens said:

this is pretty much the same as any religion though.

right, probably. but I'm talking about the only one I really know.

  On 1/21/2015 at 7:11 AM, usagi said:

 

  On 1/21/2015 at 6:23 AM, Jev said:

Reformation of Islam is impossible because it would mean that Allah was wrong with Quran - completely unacceptable for a Muslim because Allah does not make mistakes as he is absolutely perfect in every possible way (this is mentioned in Quran). Quran is directly from Allah, so there are no mistakes in the book (this is explicitly mentioned in Quran too).

 

Also, there is no religious authority in Islam (no church) that would have a right to do the reformation because everything on this Earth is subordinated to Allah.

 

Another crucial thing to understand is that a peaceful Muslim is basically a "bad Muslim" as he/she have to ignore some of the parts of Islam that are violent and hateful against non-believers. Sharia and Jihad are inseparable parts of Islam. Separating one of these would again mean that Allah was wrong. Not possible. Many of the violent, hateful fundamentalists are actually the true Muslims that really respect every single piece of information in the books..

 

Also, Muslims can (and are encouraged to) lie to non-believers if it serves the purpose of Islam. With this in mind, a "reformation" could be just another lie that would help to spread Islam around the world.

 

One more important thing I want to say is that according to the laws of the EU and my country, Islam is an illegal ideology because it violates civil-rights in our constitution (such as free speech) and other laws. Yet, our politicians are unable to come to an agreement what should be done about it.

 

So there we go...

 

you don't really know what you're talking about.

 

It would be great if you could write why you think so. I believe I have presented relevant arguments. Thank you.

  On 1/21/2015 at 8:40 AM, StephenG said:

 

Debate if far more effective in person.

 

Tone/intention/body language etc are lost over the internet/digitally mediated communication.

 

I bet most of this conversation would go over quite easygoing over a few pints and some appies.

You are so right.

  On 1/21/2015 at 9:30 AM, Brian Tregaskin said:

Sure. The first 7/8ths of this thread, people talked about islamophobia, didnt see you chime in with memes there.

  On 1/21/2015 at 4:11 PM, Lane Visitor said:

 

  On 1/21/2015 at 9:30 AM, Brian Tregaskin said:

Sure. The first 7/8ths of this thread, people talked about islamophobia, didnt see you chime in with memes there.

 

i don't care about the topic of islamophobia, that's why.

^

lol

  On 1/21/2015 at 12:46 PM, usagi said:

that's all, again, pretty paltry.

 

I have read the Qur'an twice over, and numerous sayings and conversations between the Prophet and his Companions, and the most insightful any advice on such matters gets can be boiled down to:

 

- pray some more, God will answer you

- be a good person, people will be good back to you

- don't do bad things, Satan will drag you to Hell

 

that's pretty much what I'm seeing reiterated in those articles again. the third link in particular contains a lot of prayers for stressful times, which can reassure you so long as you have faith... however when you keep praying and nothing changes, your faith erodes and pragmatism takes over.

 

I can say from my experiences that no such strategies worked for me, and I left faith slowly and agonisingly as I progressively realised this. I didn't want to leave it, but it was increasingly obvious that there was nothing there that could really help.

 

edit: also there are countless glib, empty scribblings on the Net concerning religious discussion of subjects like these which simply don't size up to the actual problems they're trying to speak to. you learn to be wary of them, even as a faithful person.

you were a muslim? interesting.... but now i see what is/was your problem, man. you haven't prayed enough

no, really. if that's how you see islam, there's nothing i can say about it.

so, are you an atheist now?

any other religion that you find possibly interesting? maybe some asian philosophies?

?????hmmm but but but ...maybe i could say something after all.

from what i know about islam i could only remind you that quran is primarily about correcting previous "god's books" that has been corrupted by people, confirming what was not corrupted and about sending/spreading good news about afterlife (and goods of this life).

muhammed's sayings are mostly about everything else (about 5000 authentic ones and much more semi-authentic ones). so, imo we can't expect to find how to make bread in quran (or any other religious book) nor how to cure depression cause it'd had to have 74 million pages for every possible advice.

but you can extrapolate answers from what's written in quran combined with muhammed's sayings, amarite? can't you really? i mean, you'd be amazed how many books have been written based only on the 10 commandments and how many things was extrapolated. really good stuff! i recommend.

back to islam. if you can't find what you are looking for nor extrapolate it then you can turn to quran again which says, paraphrasing - if you don't know something ask those who know. in our example that would be a baker and a psychiatrist.

islamic basic text (as is in other religions or philosophies) is just that, a basic text for what it was meant to do: spreading the most important messages.

we have to deal with what's not in them with 'science' or/and good reason. why else do we have science, logic and reason? where would be fun that, in knowing everything from the start? i see all religions and philosophies just as great sources for progress in all aspects of our life. remember india and the islamic empire? compare them before religions, with and after. so, yes, for a while, it was great. but humans! such morons! we can't live without wars and shit, without decadence.

imo, people who say that religion is the source of every evil know nothing about religions and history of mankind nor about human nature (and i'm shocked by the level of ignorance in this thread. michael jackson must be turning over in his grave!). it's our human nature that's the most problematic part in the story.

and, it's easy to be a smart-ass today after thousands of years of religions and religious thoughts, of any kind. someone could say: yes, thousands of years of suppression of thought! so fak off! but i'd have to say to him: sorry, but you know shit about history!

"A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion." - Francis Bacon

"I couldn't have said it better. Good luck usagi" - Arthur Schopenhauer

"Not this Arthur Schopy shit again!" - xox

  On 1/21/2015 at 10:34 PM, xox said:

so, are you an atheist now?

I don't know what I am. probably agnostic. if God exists, he doesn't seem to be listening. also I think most people's conception of him is a narrow sliver of the truth.

I definitely think people who follow the simplistic, exclusive dogma of "people who follow our religion go to Heaven, people who don't go to Hell" are basic-ass niggaz who are fooling themselves.

  Quote

any other religion that you find possibly interesting? maybe some asian philosophies?

they're all "interesting", I just don't really buy into them exclusively. I think most of them have some glimmer of the truth.

  Quote

but you can extrapolate answers from what's written in quran combined with muhammed's sayings, amarite?

this is the "development" part. this is key, closing the gates on this is imo part of the reason flourishing Islamic civilisations have become so crippled.

  Quote

imo, people who say that religion is the source of every evil know nothing about religions and history of mankind nor about human nature

I don't think it is. at bottom, they're belief systems, all men must have some kind or other.