French mag Charlie Hebdo attacked by gunmen, 12 dead

  On 1/19/2015 at 12:26 AM, cwmbrancity said:

why dont you start a thread called "antisemitism - whys its ok to deny the full extent of the holocaust",

you have a very tiring away of approaching debates. i never said such a thing and never will.

  Quote

call me an idiot, but i associated a forum dedicated to progressive music with it also attracting educated minds.

there are plenty of idiots on here

pull up a seat, pour a drink, i have some excellent baby Hudsons & a delicious blue cheese shrubbery

  On 1/19/2015 at 6:46 AM, goDel said:

 

  On 1/18/2015 at 7:28 PM, Herr Jan said:

Would like to read up on this, do you have a link to that article? Interesting spin on taking democracy / free speech as a religion.

.

That came from an interview with Karen Armstrong on a Dutch program called 'Buitenhof'.

Google came up with an interview published in Salon where she said very similar stuff. She has recently published a book on the history of religion and violence.

http://www.salon.com/2014/11/23/karen_armstrong_sam_harris_anti_islam_talk_fills_me_with_despair/

 

Which episode of Buitenhof was this?

This is the 2nd most edge-of-your-seat/rollercoaster thread of 2k15 on watmm so far, just behind Computer Controlled Acoustic Instruments Pt. 2.

Such a peaceful thread.

  On 1/19/2015 at 9:40 AM, Lane Visitor said:

This is the 2nd most edge-of-your-seat/rollercoaster thread of 2k15 on watmm so far, just behind Computer Controlled Acoustic Instruments Pt. 2.

you know it would have been just as many digits to type 2015 as typing 2k15. i'm just saying.

  On 1/19/2015 at 11:40 AM, IrisAndTheLens said:

 

  On 1/19/2015 at 9:40 AM, Lane Visitor said:

This is the 2nd most edge-of-your-seat/rollercoaster thread of 2k15 on watmm so far, just behind Computer Controlled Acoustic Instruments Pt. 2.

you know it would have been just as many digits to type 2015 as typing 2k15. i'm just saying.

 

but thats not as hip/future/with it/yolo

  On 1/19/2015 at 6:46 AM, goDel said:

 

  On 1/18/2015 at 7:28 PM, Herr Jan said:

Would like to read up on this, do you have a link to that article? Interesting spin on taking democracy / free speech as a religion.

.

That came from an interview with Karen Armstrong on a Dutch program called 'Buitenhof'.

Google came up with an interview published in Salon where she said very similar stuff. She has recently published a book on the history of religion and violence.

http://www.salon.com/2014/11/23/karen_armstrong_sam_harris_anti_islam_talk_fills_me_with_despair/

 

 

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How do ritual and religion become entangled with this violence?

 

Well, because state-building was imbued with religious ideology. Every state ideology before the modern period was essentially religious. Trying to extract religion from political life would have been like trying to take the gin out of a cocktail. Things like road-building were regarded as a sort of sacred activity.

 

Politics was imbued with religious feeling. The prophets of Israel, for example, were deeply political people. They castigated their rulers for not looking after the poor; they cried out against the system of agrarian injustice. Jesus did the same, Mohammed and the Quran do the same. Sometimes, religion permeates the violence of the state, but it also offers the consistent critique of that structural and martial violence.

 

Is it possible to disentangle that critiquing role from the role of supporting state structures?

 

I think in the West we have peeled them apart. We’ve separated religion and politics, and this was a great innovation. But so deeply embedded in our consciousness is the desire to give our lives some meaning and significance that no sooner did we do this than we infused the new nation-state with a sort of quasi-religious fervor. If you regard the sacred as something for which we are willing to give our lives, in some senses the nation has replaced God, because it’s now not acceptable to die for religion, but it is admirable to die for your country.

 

Certainly in the United States, your national feeling, whether people believe in God or not, has a great spiritual or transcendent relevance — “God bless America,” for example; the hand on the heart, the whole ethos. We do the same in the U.K. with our royal weddings. Even in our royal weddings, the aristocracy are all in military uniform.

 

That was brilliant to see and read and much needed in public debate these days. I would recommend everyone to watch that interview with her on Buitenhof (English spoken of course), around 30 minutes in:

http://programma.vpro.nl/buitenhof/afleveringen/buitenhof-18-januari--jeroen-dijsselbloem--karen-armstrong.html

I'll definitely get that book asap, thanks for sharing!

  On 1/19/2015 at 11:42 AM, triachus said:

 

  On 1/19/2015 at 11:40 AM, IrisAndTheLens said:

 

  On 1/19/2015 at 9:40 AM, Lane Visitor said:

This is the 2nd most edge-of-your-seat/rollercoaster thread of 2k15 on watmm so far, just behind Computer Controlled Acoustic Instruments Pt. 2.

you know it would have been just as many digits to type 2015 as typing 2k15. i'm just saying.

but thats not as hip/future/with it/yolo

http://tabletmag.com/scroll/188412/french-mayor-bans-oscar-nominated-muslim-film

shame.. that's a great movie

  On 1/19/2015 at 7:11 AM, goDel said:

For those people who think Salon is full of leftist fud, here's a piece in the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/25/-sp-karen-armstrong-religious-violence-myth-secular

 

She's basically saying 'religious violence' (as preached by Bill Maher, for instance) is a myth.

not really, the title is misleading, she just gives examples of non-religious violence. she doesn't contradict the idea that violence can also be religiously motivated, i.e. what we refer to as religious violence. of course it can get very entangled and complicated, but it's ludicrous to claim that actions of isis for example are not influenced by religion to a large degree.

  On 1/19/2015 at 3:33 PM, eugene said:

 

  On 1/19/2015 at 7:11 AM, goDel said:

For those people who think Salon is full of leftist fud, here's a piece in the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/25/-sp-karen-armstrong-religious-violence-myth-secular

 

She's basically saying 'religious violence' (as preached by Bill Maher, for instance) is a myth.

not really, the title is misleading, she just gives examples of non-religious violence. she doesn't contradict the idea that violence can also be religiously motivated, i.e. what we refer to as religious violence. of course it can get very entangled and complicated, but it's ludicrous to claim that actions of isis for example are not influenced by religion to a large degree.

 

Did you see the quotes around religious violence? Followed by the "as preached by"? Again, point is there's this very specific meaning given to 'religious violence' which is a myth. The meaning where it is implied that islamism is somehow different to other religions in that it is more violent. That is the 'myth' Karen describes. You can interpret in any way you want.

BTW, in the Buitenhof-interview last sunday she basically said there is proof the people fighting for ISIS are often 'secular' people (=with a poor knowledge of Islam). Whether or not religion is a source of influence doesn't negate it's mostly a political issue. Adhering to the idea it's all religion, is basically believing some myth and ignoring the influence our western policies have had on the conflict (eg. creating secular nation-states without taking into account ethnical aspects of the people (Iraq, Syria), supporting secular totalitarian regimes (shah in Iran, Iraq).

The irony is that the western nation-state which came in place of our religious identity is exactly that which is missing in the Middle East. It's very visible in Iraq, Syria and of course in Israel. ISIS is literally about building a new state. Just like the crappy old Israel/palestina conflict. You could say a new nation-state which could lead to some actual peaceful environment in the middle east has to take into account the religious identity of the people. (But that doesn't make religion the thing which makes the conflicts so violent)

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After a bumpy beginning, secularism has undoubtedly been valuable to the west, but we would be wrong to regard it as a universal law. It emerged as a particular and unique feature of the historical process in Europe; it was an evolutionary adaptation to a very specific set of circumstances. In a different environment, modernity may well take other forms. Many secular thinkers now regard “religion” as inherently belligerent and intolerant, and an irrational, backward and violent “other” to the peaceable and humane liberal state – an attitude with an unfortunate echo of the colonialist view of indigenous peoples as hopelessly “primitive”, mired in their benighted religious beliefs. There are consequences to our failure to understand that our secularism, and its understanding of the role of religion, is exceptional. When secularisation has been applied by force, it has provoked a fundamentalist reaction – and history shows that fundamentalist movements which come under attack invariably grow even more extreme. The fruits of this error are on display across the Middle East: when we look with horror upon the travesty of Isis, we would be wise to acknowledge that its barbaric violence may be, at least in part, the offspring of policies guided by our disdain.

i remember in one bbc documentary about violence on women in pakistan and india, one of the mad husbands that spilled acid over his wife's face said that it has been written in quran that it's a man's duty to do that if he doubts in his wife's loyalty. unlettered fuck!!! i've read quran and nowhere it says that, nor anything like that at all, so can we really call it a ''muslim extremism''? yes, HE said it's islam but please must we also be unlettered?

  On 1/19/2015 at 11:59 AM, IrisAndTheLens said:

 

  On 1/19/2015 at 11:42 AM, triachus said:

 

  On 1/19/2015 at 11:40 AM, IrisAndTheLens said:

 

  On 1/19/2015 at 9:40 AM, Lane Visitor said:

This is the 2nd most edge-of-your-seat/rollercoaster thread of 2k15 on watmm so far, just behind Computer Controlled Acoustic Instruments Pt. 2.

you know it would have been just as many digits to type 2015 as typing 2k15. i'm just saying.

but thats not as hip/future/with it/yolo

2 future 4 me

 

s0 phuture. #s0Yolo.

  On 1/19/2015 at 7:09 PM, xox said:

i remember in one bbc documentary about violence on women in pakistan and india, one of the mad husbands that spilled acid over his wife's face said that it has been written in quran that it's a man's duty to do that if he doubts in his wife's loyalty. unlettered fuck!!! i've read quran and nowhere it says that, nor anything like that at all, so can we really call it a ''muslim extremism''? yes, HE said it's islam but please must we also be unlettered?

mentions of acid in 7th century poetic scripture would be pretty idm though.

come now you infidels, let's have some ahmet acid!

and ahmet gave acid to the infidels and they became as moths to the flame of gods love. allahu akbar.

no one has ever blown themselves up because of idm, fact

dint GPO nearly burn him/her-self to death in Rick Rubin's studio?

hamburger gentleman/ladeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

  On 1/20/2015 at 2:29 AM, DerWaschbar said:

come now you infidels, let's have some ahmet acid!

double lols because that's my name (with a D tho).

  On 1/20/2015 at 2:40 AM, Hoodie said:

no one has ever blown themselves up because of idm, fact

you'll be eating your words when JR's Caustic Window talk at SXSW 2015 gets blown up by suicide bombers from xltronic.

(credit to gocab)

  On 1/20/2015 at 3:48 AM, usagi said:

 

  On 1/20/2015 at 2:29 AM, DerWaschbar said:

come now you infidels, let's have some ahmet acid!

 

double lols because that's my name (with a D tho).

 

 

Your name is dhmet?

Ahmdt

https://www.actualitte.com/societe/philippe-tesson-un-derapage-sans-precaution-sur-europe-1-54748.htm

http://www.arretsurimages.net/breves/2015-01-14/Tesson-les-musulmans-et-la-merde-Europe-1-id18425

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/k6sDPwtVOo8Tiq9RfQT

Writer and journalist Philippe Tesson "Muslims bring the shit to this country, it has to be said" "The problem comes from the muslims, exclusively" - he said worse. Watch it on the link above.

Nothing happened to this guy aside from losing his weekly article on "Le Point"

On the meantinme a citizen has been condemned for 2 months in prison for shouting "Allahu Akhbar" and "fuck hollande"