squarepusher Is anyone REALLY pushing things?

Surely most artists do this?

  On 10/19/2009 at 10:39 PM, Awepittance said:

  On 10/19/2009 at 10:23 PM, plstik said:

so you think its the best to keep all that great stuff for yourself? Music needs to be pushed by their listeners too..

 

of course not, i just think people have very unique/personal definitions to themselves what it means to be groundbreaking or pushing the envelope.

 

I argued with an Art professor once online for several days, it was an epic discussion about his idea of pushing the envelope, which was refining/perfecting an already exsisting aesthetic vs my belief, which is that an artist that strives to do something that hasn't been done before to his knowledge. Even if it's something that appeals to no one, i still feel by definition the 2nd school of thought is more applicable.

 

And then there are people like Stockhausen, in the historically hilarious interview where he was played an Aphex Twin Cd and found it very 'derivative of african rhythms' . stockhausen was only looking at the purely compositional aspect and not thinking of the timber or sound bed of a song as being equally important.

There is an article in the newest issue of Musicworks (kind of an artsy fartsy american version of the wire) examining what this Stockhausen interview meant, and basically they come to the conclusion that aphex twin's didgeridoo has been listened to by thousands more people than anything Stockhausen has composed.

Yeah but Stockhausen wasn't wrong at all with his observation, I just don't think he was aware or interested in the other aspects of the music. I mean even in the case of Aphex from the view of what Stockhausen was doing with music, he's very much working in the First idea of pushing. He's still working in the idea of arranging stereo sounds based on drums, bass, leads etc. He's not technically creating an entirely new feild of thought, where as some of the shit Stockhausen was doing to this day is still above and completely alien from most people's musical ideals.

I think it is about a balance of both in this conversation, of bringing the completely foreign into the realm of familiarity. That's what makes a "pushing" motion. Though really I think a PULL would make more since. Since we're grabbing onto this new idea and pulling our previous styles into it, I dunno I guess really pull and push are the same.

  On 10/19/2009 at 10:44 PM, Obel said:

  On 10/19/2009 at 10:41 PM, soundwave said:

  On 10/19/2009 at 10:35 PM, Obel said:

 

I'd like to know how people define "pushing" though. Anyone?

 

Autechre?

 

I don't mean examples so much as a well thought out explanation. (as much as I agree on AE)

Shit that you don't get till years after and even then think 'fuck' this is way out there.

Well it took me the best of three years to "get" Untilted and although I often feel they can be deliberately awkward to listen too it does get you chin scratching.

More often than not those who are "pushing it" are going unnoticed as the masses will take time to get accustomed to new ideas but at least the internet will allow anyone an audience that can communicate with each other and recommend stuff witout the need of a dedicated club or scene.

  On 10/19/2009 at 10:49 PM, Glass Plate said:

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Yeah but Stockhausen wasn't wrong at all with his observation, I just don't think he was aware or interested in the other aspects of the music.

sure he wasn't technically wrong, but just ridiculously out of touch with how the majority of people perceive musical data. I don't think John Cage would have said something that pompous if he was played an aphex twin cd. It would be interesting to see what Stockhausen thought of his 2 students that went on to form Can and Kraftwerk, i find especially Can's output far more interesting than 90% of Stockhausen. Stockhausen did a lot of great work like Kontakte, that is fucking excellent and extremely groundbreaking for the time, if not one of the most ahead of it's time compositions ever created . he also unfortunately put out a lot of garbage and rehashings of his own ideas. I have a name for this effect it's called 'stockhausen' syndrome. Wherein an artist is highly regarded for a very small aspect of their work (his electronic compositions)

just saw this from wiki

  Quote

Kontakte is composed in four channels

pretty impressive, maybe the first composed surround sound performance ever? i would love for this to come out on DVD 5.1

Yeah but John Cage isn't nearly as high on the ivory tower. Stockhausen is way up there.

My best feel for "pushing music" is trying to get more people into music that makes for ideals similar to those in the "ivory tower" or avant-garde thanking, or simply a higher awareness of the form of music it's self. (i have horrible grammar)

  On 10/19/2009 at 10:55 PM, Glass Plate said:

Yeah but John Cage isn't nearly as high on the ivory tower. Stockhausen is way up there.

i think this is a personal view, for instance i personally think john cage had a much more resonating impact on music as a whole and his ideas were quite alien for the time.

I find that too many people hold Stockhausen onto this pedestal of greatness, as if he was the most ground breaking musician of the 20th century.

Maybe if you could point to some works of his that you think are extremely ground breaking, besides Kontakte of course

There's often a fine line between genius and insanity and Stockhausen was very erratic across this border.

I like how he manipulates an entire orchestra into a solid intricate mass of abstract sound but I think he often got obsessed with the process more than what the music was actually saying or innovating. I also believe he wasn't given the most innovative or unusual Aphex material to 'judge' so to speak as RDJ will often release something thats simply good music whether it be technically innovative or not.

I'd like to see what Stockhausen would have made of something vast and powerful like Max/MSP but from what I heard he had problems adapting to modern recording techniques which gives me the impression of an ego slightly bigger than his skill however he did help put another angle on how humans perceive music which I think is more his legacy than his actual work.

The Emperor did have his new clothes however there was a great gaping hole where his arse cheeks stuck out.

9/11 art? WTF?

great post, couldn't agree more.

stockhausen and cage had completely different philosophies. pointless to compare the two imho.

this is best thread on watmm in a while.

Agreed. Interesting read!

  On 10/19/2009 at 11:16 PM, Z_B_Z said:

stockhausen and cage had completely different philosophies. pointless to compare the two imho.

i don't think it's entirely pointless, they along with a handful of other 20th century classical composers are regarded as some of the most ground breaking musicians of the last 75 years. Within the genre of music they are known for it's i think perfectly appropriate to mention them together. I could name others but they are probably the most well known out of the lot as well as not feeling a need to turn this thread into an esoteric discussion of is George Antheil more creative than Edgard Varese or was Collin Nancarrow the most creative musician to manipulate a player piano?

Well yeah I don't Stockhausen is best at all

Gyorgi Ligetti and Iannis Xennakis are both better, many other ivory tower people of that error were doing way more alienated works than John Cage. John Cage quickly got schmoozy with the free jazz scene, people like Morton Feldman etc. Who were working closer to a public demographic, rather than a super (over) academic environment. I'm not saying these artists are better, but there shit is far more foreign.

Personally I feel like the free jazz scene did way more for music in general than most of the avant-garde, all they did was bring us all of the Tzadik people who are kind of annoying.

im just saying their ideas conflict with each other. talking about their place in the pantheon of 20th centry classical music is different than comparing them.

battles battles battles battles battles battles!

Someone recommend me some Stockhausen please

  On 10/19/2009 at 10:18 PM, Awepittance said:

  On 10/19/2009 at 7:51 PM, Glass Plate said:

yeah I feel Raster Norton in general tries to be a more pushing label.

 

see i think that they have done a really good of refining over time a specific aesthetic that they helped (not entirely invented) create . I love Raster Norton but what release off of the label besides the ambient ones, doesnt revolve around the clicks & cuts sound design/composing style? Not saying that they aren't a forward thinking label, on the contrary i think they are one of the most interesting but i don't see them pushing any new genres or styles into the forefront in a while, just really damn good at refining the style they do the best.

noton

they worked in similar places in time, region, and style, what the fuck are you talking about ZBZ.

Yeah like DaDaism and Futurism had totally different ideas we can't compare them because of that...

  On 10/19/2009 at 11:26 PM, Spore said:

Someone recommend me some Stockhausen please

Just read the wiki about him, and if you still actually want to hear the pieces, find the ones that sound the most interesting.

some times knowing about the music is even more helpful than just hearing this music for cases like this.

  On 10/19/2009 at 11:26 PM, Spore said:

Someone recommend me some Stockhausen please

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telemusik

this was the one he recommend to Richie Hawtin I think

A lot of it is used on Planet of the Apes and some bit of Jarre's original China '81 film.

Gruppen and Hymnen are also acclaimed works

  On 10/19/2009 at 11:28 PM, Glass Plate said:

they worked in similar places in time, region, and style, what the fuck are you talking about ZBZ.

 

again, aside from both being 20th century classical composers, i dont see much similarity between the two.

  On 10/19/2009 at 11:28 PM, Glass Plate said:

they worked in similar places in time, region, and style, what the fuck are you talking about ZBZ.

 

Yeah like DaDaism and Futurism had totally different ideas we can't compare them because of that...

 

  On 10/19/2009 at 11:26 PM, Spore said:

Someone recommend me some Stockhausen please

Just read the wiki about him, and if you still actually want to hear the pieces, find the ones that sound the most interesting.

some times knowing about the music is even more helpful than just hearing this music for cases like this.

Thanks

  On 10/19/2009 at 11:32 PM, soundwave said:

  On 10/19/2009 at 11:26 PM, Spore said:

Someone recommend me some Stockhausen please

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telemusik

 

this was the one he recommend to Richie Hawtin I think

 

A lot of it is used on Planet of the Apes and some bit of Jarre's original China '81 film.

 

Gruppen and Hymnen are also acclaimed works

and thanks

another good one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTeLI5dUzKw

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED

NOW IS 20th CENTURY CLASSICAL MUSIC THREAD.

im more likely to point to people like Raymond Scott and Giorgio Moroder of having more of an overall impact for the musical evolution of the last 30 years than any single 20th century classical academic dude

i don't understand the need for musicians to be "pushing things" forward, to be honest. i quite like more basic stuff.

i suppose it's a matter of whether you listen to music for its innovative purposes and render pleasure from that, or merely cos you just like it.

i'd rather listen to an lp of really good mississippi delta blues covers than quaristice, for example. or chopin's ballade #1 in g-minor rather than stockhausen's kontakte.

and that's probably why i don't post here much anymore.

  On 10/19/2009 at 11:54 PM, Awepittance said:

im more likely to point to people like Raymond Scott and Giorgio Moroder of having more of an overall impact for the musical evolution of the last 30 years than any single 20th century classical academic dude

yes mate, utterly agree. moroder especially. popular music would be utterly different if it wasn't for moroder (and wendy carlos).