squarepusher Is anyone REALLY pushing things?

since the conversation has migrated into great innovators of the past, id like to give props to captain beefheart. his idea of melding blues, rock and freejazz, combined with his ability to write completely mindblowing lyrics really took things in another direction. i was reading an interview recently with his drummer and he said something about how a lot of bands cite beefheart as an influence, but he cant really hear any of his influence in their music. i think for the most part hes right. i dont see anyone around today like this guy, but i guess there can only be one beefheart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFMjztFBSzM&feature=related

i forgot to mention Throbbing Gristle, not that they are nearly as listenable in a traditional sense compared to Scott or Moroder but i think they truely bought the 'punk' aesthetic and rebellion against traditional music completely full throttle, and previous to them even most 'punk' bands still sounded pretty much like faster harder rock and roll, it wasn't until throbbing gristle came along that a band that just plays pure improvised noise with no musical training (with the exception of Carters insane roland synth collection) on stage with traditional instruments could have hundreds of people in their audiences.

yeah, i agree with tg's punk aspect. i think they took the ideals of 1977 punk music, but decided that the actual music was boring outdated rocknroll, so just started from scratch and applied it to electronic sounds. it's the whole aspect of the creation of their instruments too - carter's gristlizers. same can be applied to caberet voltaire. you can see the direct progression from this to stuff like warm leatherette, are friends electric, acid tracks, flow coma, digeridoo, etc.

also yes on the captain beefheart, but you can see the progression from blues music in his earliest lps. trout mask replica is just so amazing though, but it's kinda tied with a relationship break-up for me now. which is shite.

i think "pushing it" is music that you have trouble deciding if you like it or not. you are confused by the song, but you can't help but continue listening to it, just to see what happens. and then that is what eventally turns into something you like.

but it has to be something that doesn't just push you away in disgust. but rather repels you into wanting to get closer to it, and learn more about it

is it possible to like a 28 hour piece by stockhausen though, for example? or merely appreciate the idea of it?

if you enjoy it, then yes. you like it

but it's a concept that is more appreciated then enjoyed

gristle were genius at playing with expectations. i think this is part of the reason why they were able to attract such a following. brilliant at playing with taboos as well.

  On 10/20/2009 at 12:10 AM, margaret thatcher said:

 

also yes on the captain beefheart, but you can see the progression from blues music in his earliest lps. trout mask replica is just so amazing though, but it's kinda tied with a relationship break-up for me now. which is shite.

sure he worked with the blues but troutmask kind of came out of nowhere considering how 'straight' his previous lps were. i mean, that motherfuckers abstract

they were geniuses at a lot of things. i mean, even down to an lp title like "the second annual report", makes it feel industrial, clinical, controlled. the black and white nature of their artwork, the home-made sound quality of their live recordings, their militant appearance, their strictness to enforce an 1 hour time limit on their live shows. all genius.

their work reminds me of reading an autopsy report. disgusting but clinical and stark.

then the rumours of them using brown noise at shows, the cultism and sketchy reports of their early shows and coum transmissions, all adds to the legend. that's why they have such a colossally dedicated following, comapared to suicide, for example.

however, now they reformed and tour fairly extensively, i feel that they've kinda destroyed a lot of the legend and myth.

For sound design Richard Devine really pushed things to an extreme with Cautella. I'm stuck with awe everytime I hear that album. Nothing else I've heard touches it. I wish he'd go back to focusing on his own creative projects instead of doing design for video games or compiling sounds for sample packs. Stupid talents being used to make good money... *shakes fist*

also i'd like to add that i believe that there's room to move forward within music without having to resort to the atonals.

  On 10/20/2009 at 12:14 AM, Z_B_Z said:

gristle were genius at playing with expectations. i think this is part of the reason why they were able to attract such a following. brilliant at playing with taboos as well.

yes they were, which is why their most recent live show i saw of their's was such 'easy listening' it was shocking. I was almost expecting some ear piercing or unsettling sounds or moments in the show but it was quite normal

  On 10/20/2009 at 12:20 AM, margaret thatcher said:

 

however, now they reformed and tour fairly extensively, i feel that they've kinda destroyed a lot of the legend and myth.

don't even get me started man, when i saw Abelton live running on Peter Chrisotpherson's laptop i almost had a heart attack

  On 10/20/2009 at 12:20 AM, margaret thatcher said:

 

however, now they reformed and tour fairly extensively, i feel that they've kinda destroyed a lot of the legend and myth.

i agree, but ill take their current music over maintaining a myth. 'third mind movements' is a near masterpiece imo.

  On 10/20/2009 at 12:32 AM, Awepittance said:

 

don't even get me started man, when i saw Abelton live running on Peter Chrisotpherson's laptop i almost had a heart attack

this is snobbery, no?

also, isnt expecting the old, loud, confronational gristle setting yourself up to be letdown?

  On 10/20/2009 at 12:34 AM, Z_B_Z said:

  On 10/20/2009 at 12:20 AM, margaret thatcher said:

 

however, now they reformed and tour fairly extensively, i feel that they've kinda destroyed a lot of the legend and myth.

 

i agree, but ill take their current music over maintaining a myth. 'third mind movements' is a near masterpiece imo.

 

  On 10/20/2009 at 12:32 AM, Awepittance said:

 

don't even get me started man, when i saw Abelton live running on Peter Chrisotpherson's laptop i almost had a heart attack

 

this is snobbery, no?

well if it was just that alone that made me upset, then yes it probably would be. but it was the extremely whitewashed 'remixes' they did of their greatest hits using techno kick drums under every track combined with it that made it a very forgettable show (and a terrible example of why Throbbing Gristle were special in the first place)

Not sure if you caught them on their most recent tour, but i would have much rather had them do a set in the style of 2nd annual report, improvised, noisey, jarring, unpredictable and unsettling. That is the TG i prefer, the safe stuff they played at the show seemed almost pointless to showcase. I mean it was quite literally a greatest hits session techno remixes. I had a similar experience when i first saw Skinny Puppy play live after they reformed most recently and it was such a letdown i would have preferred not going at all and just idealizing what they once were.

not snobbery, it just goes against their early ethos, which is something they were always so strong to maintain. it'd be like them recording an album in 1977 using guitars and drums.

and yeah, third mind movements is very good. possibly a good thing that genesis was toned down a bit.

edit: i heard a recording of them at coachella 09. you mean "persuasion" with what sounds like a 909 bd underneath it. i wasn't impressed. also they played an encore. it's all a bit too radio/crowd friendly for my liking.

  On 10/20/2009 at 12:34 AM, Z_B_Z said:

 

also, isnt expecting the old, loud, confronational gristle setting yourself up to be letdown?

maybe all of those things in conjunction, but just because they are older now doesn't mean they still can't release some of the old TG vibes of putting on intense live shows. I just want that intensity and unpredictableness back. Not even really loud or confrontational just intriguing , not playing back what is basically a CD worth of material

and i dont think being tired or old is an excuse for being whitewashed, look at the punk band No Means No for example. they started in 1980 and when they play live now they look like a bunch of 65 year old dads but holy fuck they can still rock and 2 nights ago i saw them form one of the biggest moshpits i have ever seen happen in a small club.

edit: i feel like PC on his own still carries that same creative spark that made throbbing Gristle so interesting. but the other members seemed to have completely lost it, i mean it was evident in most of the chris & cosey stuff as well as the majority of the Psychic TV catalog. I like a lot of the music from either camp but i look at it as pop music not as experimental/ground breaking like TG or coil is/was

yeah, i agree that them being 30 years older has nothing to do with it. they're just a bit lazier and contented now, i think...

having said that, i remember when they first reformed at the astoria in 2004. i couldn't go, but i got sent a recording of the gig the next day. they played it like a rehearsal, ignoring the crowd. they started with this massive thunderous drone, and i just sat there listening to this recording with a colossal smile. then they played "convincing people". no one expected old material. i just think that the new live shows are lacking that kinda unexpectedness - everyone expects that they'll play persuasion, hamburger lady, discipline....

ive heard many similar criticisms in regards to tg doing their 'modernized' greatest hits. i cant say that i share this point of view. i understand it, but i love the new versions of 'discipline', 'hamburger lady' etc. i see nothing wrong with them revisiting their past. theres a bootleg out there of them performing their 'second annual report' album from start to finish (paris 07?) and i dare say that in some part i like it better than the original recording.

I watched the Kraftwerk/German Electronic music/amazing music documentary last night, long(the one nasely journalist got on my nerves a bit) but inspirational and shows what it takes to truly make something new....

have inspirations, work your ass off and don't try to recreate what someone else has already done....

make your own version

been my musical ethos forever now and this film was yet another affirmation of this mind frame...

thanks for turning me onto the film

do you make music Z_B_Z?

no problem, glad you liked it :)

yeah, i make music. ill try to upload some in the next couple days.

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And then there are people like Stockhausen, in the historically hilarious interview where he was played an Aphex Twin Cd and found it very 'derivative of african rhythms' . stockhausen was only looking at the purely compositional aspect and not thinking of the timber or sound bed of a song as being equally important.

There is an article in the newest issue of Musicworks (kind of an artsy fartsy american version of the wire) examining what this Stockhausen interview meant, and basically they come to the conclusion that aphex twin's didgeridoo has been listened to by thousands more people than anything Stockhausen has composed. So in turn people who get too wrapped up into the technical or mathematical side of 'breaking new ground' as opposed to trying to reach someone on a human emotional level at the end of the day will impact very little people compared to the latter.

Really good point. There are so many people, especially snobby music students that only judge whether music is "good" or not by it's technical prowess. Even if it sounds horribly cheesy, they will still prefer it over something WAY more expressive but less technical.

  On 10/20/2009 at 2:06 AM, Z_B_Z said:

no problem, glad you liked it :)

 

yeah, i make music. ill try to upload some in the next couple days.

I just put a new/old one up....

the track is new to soundcloud

but I created it about 4 years ago

I dig it

http://soundcloud.com/atop/clown-1

looking forward to hearing what you make

very cool. nice thick atmosphere.

Sqaurepusher pushes squares