RIP to WATMM Discussion thread

Damn. I can't believe what I'm reading. This place was HOME for a long time in my life. I'm confident it will live on in some capacity somewhere though. I'm going to have to keep checking back to see where things end up. Thank you all for some sweet memories.

I'm not on any social media sites, never have been. I was a mailing list type when there were still mailing lists (IDM), and now WATMM is the only forum I frequent with pleasure.

You are my people. This is my place. I don't know what I'll do if there's no WATMM.

I've basically offered to find out and cover the costs for the site until 2026, which is supposed to be an extended bridge term whereby the strategizing or replication of the site (somewhere else, at-parity) can be done under less duress.

It's also meant as a brainstorming thread for the solutions or where to go - cuz this thread "RIP ..." seems to mean only that it is ending, and I'm offering that we populate this "I will help" one with the ideas of how to pave forward.
 

I don't think I could do anything for 26 years, so respect

  On 1/30/2025 at 2:44 PM, chenGOD said:

I think before we as a community jump to any conclusions or rash decisions, we should take some time to explore the possibilities and then initiate a course of action before June 3rd. Joyrex has only just made the announcement, and everybody is trying to provide a solution right away.

chengo.com is available. just sayin...

  On 1/30/2025 at 4:52 PM, zero said:

chengo.com is available. just sayin...

lol

if i can't see what dcom is listening to, i'll be really fuckin upset

Social media has never been as good as forums, neither in its function nor its structure, but these days the two are so different that it's just not an option. The last decade has shown us that the moment any political issue crops up within social media, the whole thing becomes polarised and weaponised. I can't think of a single social media site or app that doesn't have a group of people fundamentally opposed to it or its owners, and if one exists, there's nothing stopping its owners or future owners saying or doing something that will lead to another exodus. It's literally not a viable alternative to a genuinely independent forum.

Similarly, Discord exists as an app, even on computers, which is another hurdle. The main reasons forums began to die off is because the userbase turnover slowed due to social media - people already using Facebook had Groups there and waiting and so didn't need to go in search of somewhere to chat about particular topics; members leaving forums has always been the case, it only become an issue when there aren't any to replace them. So any hurdles to new people joining will have to be removed if a community is to have a future.

WATMM is one of the busiest forums I know of - it'd look a lot busier if half the posts weren't hidden away in huge megathreads - and while it might not come close to its heyday, there are still enough active posters here to keep it going for years yet, but we need those new people to make it feel really worthwhile and keep things fresh. It has to be open, inviting, and very user-friendly. Somewhere you can lurk - a lot of us began as lurkers until we came across a particular topic we wanted to have our say on, and joined up, and found the door had closed on us and we were trapped here. That needs to always be the case, so a site some people won't use because it's owned by a fascist techbro, or a server which is only accessible by a temporary invite link that asks you to install some software won't cut it in the long run.

This is basically leading to: we need a replacement forum, which is difficult because of the time, effort and money involved in the upkeep. But honestly, I see it being the only realistic option.

  On 1/30/2025 at 1:36 PM, usagi said:

that's not quite the same thing though, is it? the history will be gone.

I can understand sensitivity around handing over possible private data e.g. DMs to new owners but I'm sure there's a compromise. worst case scenario you could wipe some of that stuff and retain what you can as a best middle ground.

I think another thing to consider is the process that would land in front of Joyrex if he chose to hand this off to another party. He may not want the pressure to have to vet a responsible handoff, avoiding a disaster down the line staining the legacy of the site by choosing the wrong person/group, maybe doesn't have the time and energy to navigate that. Or maybe thats an easy solution, ultimately it's up to him to decide if that route appeals to him. My selfish hope is that it does and he'll pass the reigns on somehow. 

i'm not really understanding the idea that papa doesn't want to hand it off to someone he "doesn't agree with" bc if the site goes offline, there is no legacy.

while i am genuinely grateful to joyrex, and i really think what he's done with watmm is amazing, i do object to the idea that he has no obligation to the community to hand this place off to those of us who want to keep it going. imo, if joyrex pulls the plug, there's no denying his legacy will be how he destroyed watmm. 

not at all trying to be a bitch here. much respect to papa J. but this place has been such a valuable and fun forum primarily bc of the people who come here and contribute to the forum. it definitely should not be one guy just saying hey i started it and i host the forum so it's my decision. honestly feels really disrespectful to all the members, like he thinks we are nothing.

  On 1/30/2025 at 6:17 PM, purlieu said:

Social media has never been as good as forums, neither in its function nor its structure, but these days the two are so different that it's just not an option. The last decade has shown us that the moment any political issue crops up within social media, the whole thing becomes polarised and weaponised. I can't think of a single social media site or app that doesn't have a group of people fundamentally opposed to it or its owners, and if one exists, there's nothing stopping its owners or future owners saying or doing something that will lead to another exodus. It's literally not a viable alternative to a genuinely independent forum.

Similarly, Discord exists as an app, even on computers, which is another hurdle. The main reasons forums began to die off is because the userbase turnover slowed due to social media - people already using Facebook had Groups there and waiting and so didn't need to go in search of somewhere to chat about particular topics; members leaving forums has always been the case, it only become an issue when there aren't any to replace them. So any hurdles to new people joining will have to be removed if a community is to have a future.

WATMM is one of the busiest forums I know of - it'd look a lot busier if half the posts weren't hidden away in huge megathreads - and while it might not come close to its heyday, there are still enough active posters here to keep it going for years yet, but we need those new people to make it feel really worthwhile and keep things fresh. It has to be open, inviting, and very user-friendly. Somewhere you can lurk - a lot of us began as lurkers until we came across a particular topic we wanted to have our say on, and joined up, and found the door had closed on us and we were trapped here. That needs to always be the case, so a site some people won't use because it's owned by a fascist techbro, or a server which is only accessible by a temporary invite link that asks you to install some software won't cut it in the long run.

This is basically leading to: we need a replacement forum, which is difficult because of the time, effort and money involved in the upkeep. But honestly, I see it being the only realistic option.

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100% behind this, thanks @purlieu. Discord servers are fine for a variety of things, but even when setup forum-like, they aren't as open from afar.

The way I see it, our two options for continuing this community are:

1. We convince Joyrex to pass over the controls to a board of rotating responsible elected members, and WATMM continues on, with the same adress, the same software, keeping its archives, and primordialy its users.
   For that to work, we'd need to see the actual numbers of the financial setup so that we can see what we'd be getting into. How much is that Invision bill, what's the income from subscriptions, the ads? Would J. want payment or reassurance? It's a little work, but it's to get take of a big burden.
2. We start anew (I like @dcom's "WATDD" name idea) under the same premises of a shared, self-managed forum.

We care about our place. People (including, this is important, lurkers) have already come forward with proposals for no-strings attached financial support. And previous calculations (done without access to the books) point to this being very feasible just with some members subscribing. What we need now is to organize. Who wants to put their name in the bag to do accounting, IT, research of software and hosting options?

edit: just realized there could be a third, middle option in case Joyrex doesn't want us to "spoil his legacy" : the present forum gets passed on, on the condition that we change the name to mark a division.

edit: in response to aencre's post

Like others have mentioned before, option 2 probably means the community splits off in multiple directions. Each with their own ideas what the next watmm should look like. With varying degrees of success. As far as I'm concerned, that's the "end of the roman empire"-scenario. I've seen various attempts in the past. And often it leads to exaggerated versions of a specific side of the watmm community. Haven't seen it result in a mixture such as this. 

imooo

edit2: been around since 2003 btw

beakdotcomdotbizslashwatmm.com

  On 1/30/2025 at 7:09 PM, Alcofribas said:

i'm not really understanding the idea that papa doesn't want to hand it off to someone he "doesn't agree with" bc if the site goes offline, there is no legacy.

while i am genuinely grateful to joyrex, and i really think what he's done with watmm is amazing, i do object to the idea that he has no obligation to the community to hand this place off to those of us who want to keep it going. imo, if joyrex pulls the plug, there's no denying his legacy will be how he destroyed watmm. 

not at all trying to be a bitch here. much respect to papa J. but this place has been such a valuable and fun forum primarily bc of the people who come here and contribute to the forum. it definitely should not be one guy just saying hey i started it and i host the forum so it's my decision. honestly feels really disrespectful to all the members, like he thinks we are nothing.

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I've learned the hard way and a long time ago that watmm is not a democracy...

look at me using fancy words like democracy... that says a lot about my emotional state facing this moment... 

  On 1/30/2025 at 7:09 PM, Alcofribas said:

i'm not really understanding the idea that papa doesn't want to hand it off to someone he "doesn't agree with" bc if the site goes offline, there is no legacy.

while i am genuinely grateful to joyrex, and i really think what he's done with watmm is amazing, i do object to the idea that he has no obligation to the community to hand this place off to those of us who want to keep it going. imo, if joyrex pulls the plug, there's no denying his legacy will be how he destroyed watmm. 

not at all trying to be a bitch here. much respect to papa J. but this place has been such a valuable and fun forum primarily bc of the people who come here and contribute to the forum. it definitely should not be one guy just saying hey i started it and i host the forum so it's my decision. honestly feels really disrespectful to all the members, like he thinks we are nothing.

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Maybe he’s hiding something and trying to bury the paper/data trail that watmm is a shell for?

If I’m banned before June, you will all know I was onto something hot  

  On 1/30/2025 at 7:53 PM, J3FF3R00 said:

Maybe he’s hiding something and trying to bury the paper/data trail that watmm is a shell for?

If I’m banned before June, you will all know I was onto something hot  

 

[burger]

RIP

[/burger]

That burger will never be fixed

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but did anyone bring up Discourse?

https://www.discourse.org/

It's just a template for a forum, similar to WATMM. We use that for Subvert.fm and it's much the same thing.

  On 1/30/2025 at 8:06 PM, Braintree said:

Discourse

Yeah, if we're going the start-a-new-forum route, Discourse would be at the top of the open-source solutions I'd like us to try. But as @Satans Little Helper pointed out, the ideal outcome to maintain the community as a whole would be to keep the actual forum, with its users and archives, instead of asking everyone to migrate.

  On 1/30/2025 at 8:06 PM, Braintree said:

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but did anyone bring up Discourse?

https://www.discourse.org/

It's just a template for a forum, similar to WATMM. We use that for Subvert.fm and it's much the same thing.

Looks interesting ! Do we have any idea of how many pageviews/month WATMM generates? 500$/month for the highest plan seems a bit costly but I obviously have no idea how much WATMM costs / month

  On 1/29/2025 at 6:26 PM, zero said:

what exactly do you want to look at in the archives?

this website is a vast trove of music, I often come back just to find some specific track.

  On 1/30/2025 at 2:44 PM, chenGOD said:

I think before we as a community jump to any conclusions or rash decisions, we should take some time to explore the possibilities and then initiate a course of action before June 3rd. Joyrex has only just made the announcement, and everybody is trying to provide a solution right away.

  On 1/29/2025 at 6:50 PM, cern said:

@Joyrex Why u talking about the Artists not releasing stuff? Ae is hotter than ever and Aphex releasing also.. The conversations are going strong. 

If u are tired and stuff that is fine but don't mess it up with this "artists not doing their job" that's just silly man 

ya this is a joke.  too tired and busy to transfer ownership?  I understand people get busy in life, but if he doesn't want to run WATMM, then this place is more than just him, he can give it to one of the mods, whose job it is (yes or else why are you a mod) to do this kind of work

someone needs to run a wget hacker script on the memes thread. 

  On 1/29/2025 at 6:54 PM, Rubin Farr said:

So I’ve suggested to the other mods we could set up a new AFTER WATMM subreddit, it would be free, but we need a few people to mod it, it could be made public or private, maybe a poll to decide? Now, there is already a We Are The Music Makers sub, which is mostly a general musician discussion sub, I’m not technically minded like the Admins here or the other mods, so this is the best idea I could muster. Some members dislike Reddit, I get that, but the online world is changing rapidly, this option whether it be temporary or permanent, would at least maintain some of the friendships and discussions we’ve established over the past 2 1/2 decades. Opinions welcome.

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no.  reddit is not a forum.  this is just as bad as an "after WATMM imageboard" or "after WATMM discord server".  nobody will use it.  it must be watmm.com the forum