2024 US Election

  On 11/10/2024 at 4:32 AM, chenGOD said:

They’re not going to admit it verbally

they did recently announced they are not allowing palestinians to return to northern gaza and have split gaza in two and all aid will go to the southern part. 

so, ethnic cleansing. land grab. settlements to follow. drilling off the coast soon too i'm sure. 

also, the most killed age group in gaza is kids under 9 years old. and israel/IDF routinely says every palestinian regardless of age is a future member of hamas. netanyahu is a psychopath. sick society they have over there.. but look at me, the pot, calling the kettle black. 

edit: also, did all the threads get crossed?

  On 11/10/2024 at 7:01 AM, ignatius said:

they did recently announced they are not allowing palestinians to return to northern gaza and have split gaza in two and all aid will go to the southern part. 

so, ethnic cleansing. land grab. settlements to follow. drilling off the coast soon too i'm sure. 

Yeah I meant it a little more bluntly as in the Israeli govt is not going to tell Joe Biden “hey our objective is genocide” but yeah there are plenty of public statements by members of the Likud that are really fucking gross.  

  On 11/9/2024 at 5:45 PM, ignatius said:

they try to do things some times but also make bad choices.. biden picking the railroads over the railroad workers and ending the strike was a bad decision imo. he abandoned the union. Dems have always tried to be a bit more kind and improve the safety net but big picture things they are firmly on the side of corporations and helped structure american work and financial system to benefit those institutions at the expense of workers and the middle class. this has been the trend since?? i don't know as long as i was old enough to pay attention.  but reagan/thatcher eras really kicked off the anti-union stuff in big ways and democrats didnt do a whole lot to really slow it down since. 

only recently did a little life get breathed back into unions but they have their own problems. nothing is perfect. dems like to do what's convenient but as a platform and a party they haven't really gotten their hands dirty except now and then. there's some very pro union working class type representatives/senators who have always fought for the working class.. sometimes against their own party. but most dems, like republicans, are fine being owned by wallstreet and taking that sweet campaign money. 

as for information.. yeah.. there's so many problems there and dominant narratives and ignorance and lies. months ago a guy on my street, who is a teamster, was going door to door to talk about a local candidate for city council. the candidate was a union guy and had been his whole life. organizer, leader etc.. and my neighbor starts talking about how great he is because this candidate doesn't have any wacky socialist ideas. i just nodded because didn't feel like telling him he should look into how unions in america came to be and what the forces behind them were and who those people were and what they believed.. then maybe he wouldn't say dumb shit about wacky socialist ideas.. but i just nodded.. because i didn't want to get into it.

people, generally don't know history especially working class history and it's a shame because it would be inspiring for them to know how bad ass some people were back in the day 

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relevant:

these are the people they're always failing to reach and always paying the price for.

  On 11/9/2024 at 2:13 PM, may be rude said:

...

palestinian kids decide to join hamas because of these inaccurate narratives. this is the real root of the perpetuation of the conflict.

This is absolutely mind-boggling to me - do you mean that you think the conflict between Israel and Palestine is because children are told Palestine is a country when it's actually a region? 

This is an interesting take on the election. Not sure I agree with everything but it is definitely thought provoking. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/09/trump-victory-explanation-scrutiny

  On 11/10/2024 at 12:04 PM, picklish2 said:

This is absolutely mind-boggling to me - do you mean that you think the conflict between Israel and Palestine is because children are told Palestine is a country when it's actually a region? 

that's not what i said, no. i made a point about how many internet posters are careless and deceitful by pretending to have high confidence about a topic when actually they're spreading a narrative and don't understand the topic. and i made a point about how information warfare is a major component of the continuation of this 75 year conflict.

this is mind-boggling stuff, though

  On 11/10/2024 at 4:32 AM, chenGOD said:

What in the fuck are you even talking about. They’re not going to admit it verbally but their actions are quite plain to see. 
You need better public  information. Read the summary of the ICJ most recent opinion. https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/186/186-20240719-sum-01-00-en.pdf

right that's what i said, you're claiming it's a secret plot behind a guise of a military response. i just want this to be clear for people. thanks, i'll check it out. 

  On 11/10/2024 at 1:35 PM, chenGOD said:

This is an interesting take on the election. Not sure I agree with everything but it is definitely thought provoking. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/09/trump-victory-explanation-scrutiny

meh, a bit correct in there for sure but with a shotgun approach like that, you're bound to hit something.

but to be fair, it's a complex issue that'll need complex solutions. i think the premise is flawed tho...'right is bad for society, left is good for society but lost and so it has to make things better for society by doing the same basic things they've done for 30 years but didn't do great the last few'

i don't know that these old ways of right v left is going to work well going forward, at least not often. what a lot of these wonks are forgetting is that Trump destroyed the right, took it over, co-opted bits, cribbed some random shit that worked in his spaghetti-at-the-wall testing, and ran it into the ground for success. this wasn't a 'wow, the conservatives won the hearts of America, we need to get the liberal side of America doing that instead!' it was more a 'wow, shit got blown up but held some vague semblance of staying in right v left just because that was a help to the narrative' - 

my point, muddled somewhere in there, is that the shit is already blown up. the parties have already fractured. this was a vote against establishment right v left thinking, not for Trump because he's a great leader*.

*some 20%-30% do think Trump was a good leader, but those aren't the people that can be won over, for the most part. forget about trying to reason with them or earn their votes, i'm leaving them out of the calculus essentially. same for those 10%-20% on the far left, they're not of particular concern imo.

  On 11/10/2024 at 3:30 PM, may be rude said:

 

  

right that's what i said, you're claiming it's a secret plot behind a guise of a military response. i just want this to be clear for people. thanks, i'll check it out. 

I’m not claiming any such thing. It’s no secret plot. It’s fucking out in the open, and the ICJ ruling says basically that Israel’s actions, not words, are in violation of international law and could likely constitute a genocide. 

  On 11/10/2024 at 4:01 PM, chenGOD said:

I’m not claiming any such thing. It’s no secret plot. It’s fucking out in the open, and the ICJ ruling says basically that Israel’s actions, not words, are in violation of international law and could likely constitute a genocide. 

where in the document you linked does the word genocide appear? i searched and found no occurrences. are you referring to a different document?

  On 11/10/2024 at 4:02 PM, may be rude said:

where in the document does the word genocide appear? i searched and found no occurrences

Their actions are in contravention of the relevant act. 

  On 11/10/2024 at 4:03 PM, chenGOD said:

Their actions are in contravention of the relevant act. 

what act? help me out man, you're saying if i read these 32 pages of legalese and that don't mention genocide then i'll see how israel is doing genocide. articulate your argument. why is it clear that what israel is doing is not based on a military response to the latest in a long series of attacks by a neighboring government? that's war, and war is bad. why is it not that, but actually genocide? you link to 32 pages of legalese that don't mention genocide and act like it's all obvious. 

also there's a contradiction here:

  On 11/10/2024 at 4:32 AM, chenGOD said:

They’re not going to admit it verbally but their actions are quite plain to see. 

  On 11/10/2024 at 4:01 PM, chenGOD said:

I’m not claiming any such thing. It’s no secret plot.

  On 11/10/2024 at 3:35 PM, auxien said:

meh, a bit correct in there for sure but with a shotgun approach like that, you're bound to hit something.

but to be fair, it's a complex issue that'll need complex solutions. i think the premise is flawed tho...'right is bad for society, left is good for society but lost and so it has to make things better for society by doing the same basic things they've done for 30 years but didn't do great the last few'

i don't know that these old ways of right v left is going to work well going forward, at least not often. what a lot of these wonks are forgetting is that Trump destroyed the right, took it over, co-opted bits, cribbed some random shit that worked in his spaghetti-at-the-wall testing, and ran it into the ground for success. this wasn't a 'wow, the conservatives won the hearts of America, we need to get the liberal side of America doing that instead!' it was more a 'wow, shit got blown up but held some vague semblance of staying in right v left just because that was a help to the narrative' - 

my point, muddled somewhere in there, is that the shit is already blown up. the parties have already fractured. this was a vote against establishment right v left thinking, not for Trump because he's a great leader*.

*some 20%-30% do think Trump was a good leader, but those aren't the people that can be won over, for the most part. forget about trying to reason with them or earn their votes, i'm leaving them out of the calculus essentially. same for those 10%-20% on the far left, they're not of particular concern imo.

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Yeah what we really need is moderated progression, both sides working together with compromise, but when's the last time that actually happened?

With the current state of the media ecosystem, I find it hard to see how significant numbers of reasonable candidates will be elected and this whole shitshow will just continue accelerating down the drain.

  On 11/10/2024 at 4:23 PM, may be rude said:

what act? help me out man, you're saying if i read these 32 pages of legalese and that don't mention genocide then i'll see how israel is doing genocide. articulate your argument. why is it clear that what israel is doing is not based on a military response to the latest in a long series of attacks by a neighboring government? that's war, and war is bad.

it makes no difference whether or not anyone calls it genocide, America is the only country that can stop Israel from doing what it is doing - other countries could step in and help end what is happening there but they choose not to because it would mean confronting America and facing either sanctions or war. Chairman Mao once said that international law comes out of the barrel of a gun. So if some country is violating more or less every international safeguard laws as they execute military operations, and no one is willing to stop them, then it makes no practical difference whether it is called genocide or some other term. Although arguably once the ICJ and ICC cases against Israel get rolling after the war, and once books and documentaries begin getting made after the war is over, then those legal terms will potentially have meaning in the sense that they can be used to litigate a case against Israel and any other country that supported their actions, and I read recently that in terms of military support, America has contributed 70 cents for every US dollar for the bombs, bullets, intel, etc. of the gaza, lebanon, iran, syria, iraq operations that have been jointly carried out by idf and american military (those are all of the countries, and maybe there are more, that idf has targeted).

If you want to have an understanding of alternate viewpoints about what is happening in the middle east, then the best starting point would probably be to look at interviews with people who used to work for the biden harris state department and then resigned after they understood that there would be no restrictions for military assistance to israel. The American news show Democracy Now frequently hosts these people who resigned from the biden harris state department in protest. They resigned publicly. There are probably scores of other state dept workers who resigned without speaking out. Here are a few that I have posted in the israel thread that are a good starting point imo: Annelle Sheline, Josh Paul, Hala Rharrit.

Josh Paul probably speaks with the most authority out of these three. He resigned a few weeks after Oct 7th when he realized that US arms sales would accelerate and that his bosses were not listening or addressing his concerns that this would in no way help America reach its stated goal of a diplomatic two-state solution in israel/palestine (and would have the opposite effect of destabilizing the region with unnecessary military conflict). If you watch those interviews with an open mind, then you can at the very least see why a majority of the world population who follows this conflict uses terms like genocide and ethnic cleansing when discussing this issue. I also would recommend maybe not watching them today. It is Sunday morning, maybe go outside or meet a frend for coffee or something. Arguing politics with strangers online is probably not the best use of your time for a sunday morning.

  On 11/10/2024 at 11:13 AM, usagi said:

relevant:

these are the people they're always failing to reach and always paying the price for.

 

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yeah.. i posted that earlier in the thread. totally relevant. channel 5 always manages to get some decent man on the street interviews 

that ralph nader youtube chat goes into a bit of the history of the demise of the democratic party and their move from supporting working class people to becoming the party of big finance. also, speaks on how resistance movements are built and what needs to happen to counter all the shit trump is going to do and what he expects trump will do in regards to dismantling regulations etc. 

  On 11/10/2024 at 4:23 PM, may be rude said:

what act? help me out man, you're saying if i read these 32 pages of legalese and that don't mention genocide then i'll see how israel is doing genocide. articulate your argument. why is it clear that what israel is doing is not based on a military response to the latest in a long series of attacks by a neighboring government? that's war, and war is bad. why is it not that, but actually genocide? you link to 32 pages of legalese that don't mention genocide and act like it's all obvious. 

also there's a contradiction here:

 

 

 

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There's no contradiction in those two quotes of mine. Just because the IDF doesn't explicitly say the words "we're going to do a genocide" doesn't mean that their actions are a secret plot. Israeli actions have been ongoing for a long time (as outlined in the summary of the opinion I linked), and the end results of those actions are also clear to see.

As to the summary - what it actually says (and this is my bad, I was reading it on my phone earlier) is that Israel is contravention of international law. They rule that the occupation is illegal, and that all states should refuse to recognize it as legal. They do not rule on genocide, because the genocide case is ongoing. Ireland is set to intervene in that case: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/irish-parliament-passes-motion-declaring-israel-is-perpetrating-genocide-in-gaza/3387734

The ICJ does say this on page 16 of the summary:

  Quote

The Court further observes that the effects of Israel’s policies and practices discussed earlier,
and its exercise of sovereignty over certain parts of the Occupied Palestinian Territory, particularly
the West Bank and East Jerusalem, constitute an obstruction to the exercise by the Palestinian people
of its right to self-determination. The effects of these policies and practices include Israel’s
annexation of parts of the Occupied Palestinian Territory, the fragmentation of this territory,
undermining its integrity, the deprivation of the Palestinian people of the enjoyment of the natural
resources of the territory and its impairment of the Palestinian people’s right to pursue its economic,
social and cultural development

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So yeah again, it's not the word genocide, but the end result is the same. If you want to split hairs on that, go ahead.

  On 11/10/2024 at 3:30 PM, may be rude said:

that's not what i said, no. i made a point about how many internet posters are careless and deceitful by pretending to have high confidence about a topic when actually they're spreading a narrative and don't understand the topic. and i made a point about how information warfare is a major component of the continuation of this 75 year conflict.

this is mind-boggling stuff, though

As far as I understand your position, is that the internet narratives (Palestine being taught to be a state, not a region) are what's leading conscription of children to Hamas? As in: part of the information warfare is explicitly that Palestines are taught that Palestine is a state?

Or if I'm misunderstanding, what are these narratives? What extra information is being missed by people not directly involved?

lol.. laura loomer, RFK jr., Cheryl Hines looking annoyed in the background

  On 11/10/2024 at 6:17 PM, ignatius said:

lol.. laura loomer, RFK jr., Cheryl Hines looking annoyed in the background

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  On 11/10/2024 at 4:45 PM, EdamAnchorman said:

Yeah what we really need is moderated progression, both sides working together with compromise, but when's the last time that actually happened?

With the current state of the media ecosystem, I find it hard to see how significant numbers of reasonable candidates will be elected and this whole shitshow will just continue accelerating down the drain.

Congress seems to come together when it's important for their own personal pocketbooks, otherwise it's surely rare.

the dissolution of reliable media at multiple levels with healthy journalism in both depth and breadth is a huge part of the state of things over the last 20 or whatever years. this goes hand in hand with the fumbling education system as a whole...it could easily keep spiraling downwards, but i don't think we're near far enough gone down that hole to think it's inevitable either. some shit is going to change/shift before there's a real change tho. i worry that'll end up being something outsized & ugly/horrific. 

So to fellow Americans here: 

How will Trumps political policies affect you directly? Like will you have a lower salary? Pay alot more for groceries? 
Maybe more easy to getting robbed by a gunman on the streets? 

He is very unstable and wild but I just wonder how everything will change for YOU personally the next 4 years. 

  On 11/10/2024 at 5:47 PM, picklish2 said:

As far as I understand your position, is that the internet narratives (Palestine being taught to be a state, not a region) are what's leading conscription of children to Hamas? As in: part of the information warfare is explicitly that Palestines are taught that Palestine is a state?

no. are you trolling me? 

the kinds of narratives contributing to prolonging the conflict are narratives that misrepresent the nature of the situation, acting as though it's as simple as israel being the bad guy and the palestinians being innocent victims. accusing israel of genocide, if it's not true, really feeds into that narrative. that kind of idea fuels terrorist attacks by groups like hamas, which perpetuate the conflict.

a lot of people slinging the word genocide around don't understand the situation, including the history of the area. i hope that helps you understand my post.

i hope you're not trying to strawman me. 

here's the post for reference: 

  On 11/10/2024 at 7:23 PM, cern said:

So to fellow Americans here: 

How will Trumps political policies affect you directly? Like will you have a lower salary? Pay alot more for groceries? 
Maybe more easy to getting robbed by a gunman on the streets? 

He is very unstable and wild but I just wonder how everything will change for YOU personally the next 4 years. 

 

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too soon to say. depends on what he does w/the economy and tariffs etc. but if they manage to repeal the ACA i will lose healthcare along with millions of other people. if he gives more tax cuts to the top 1% then it's likely everyone in the middle class will see a raise in their income tax a year later. 

  On 11/9/2024 at 2:13 PM, may be rude said:

"palestinian" is used for those who refuse to accept israel. there's an element of demonization of israel tracing back to the beginning and i think rooted in racism. the 75 year history of conflict basically seems to be a prolonged, deteriorating situation of one side entrenched in a wrong ideology of insisting on this demonization.

and now americans are perpetuating it.

this is the information warfare perpetuating the conflict.

palestinian kids decide to join hamas because of these inaccurate narratives. this is the real root of the perpetuation of the conflict.

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your posts about this topic itt are all basically just word salad, man. you keep spamming these election threads saying everything is about "narratives" or whatever but you're showing your ass here. 

think about what you're saying. one side (lol) is "insisting" on "wrong ideology" and "demonization." is that your understanding of colonial subjects? when the boot comes smashing down on their necks over and over, are you quite sure "inaccurate narratives [are] the real root" of the problem?

in just this one particular war, "one side" has decimated large swaths of gaza, they've dropped so many fucking bombs that it's been the equivalent of multiple nuclear blasts, they've massacred tens and tens of thousands of innocent people (more and more it's looking like they are mostly women and children), they've pushed millions of people into homelessness, pushed them to the brink of starvation, they have killed UN workers, relief workers, journalists, they have posted numerous vile videos of soldiers destroying and stealing personal property, they've killed their own hostages, they've used human shields (you forgot to mention this when you brought it up itt), they've shut down news agencies they don't like, they've spread blatant propaganda through the mainstream liberal press in the united states, etc etc ad fucking nauseam. and they've done this with the direct assistance of the united states and your beloved biden administration which has poured arms and dollars into "one side" of this conflict. and this is one war of the many, a series of constant incursions into occupied territory that is part of an ongoing chain of brutality waged against innocent people, the purpose of which is subjection and domination. 

gtfo with your "one side" has "inaccurate narratives" bullshit.

  On 11/10/2024 at 7:23 PM, cern said:

So to fellow Americans here: 

How will Trumps political policies affect you directly? Like will you have a lower salary? Pay alot more for groceries? 
Maybe more easy to getting robbed by a gunman on the streets? 

He is very unstable and wild but I just wonder how everything will change for YOU personally the next 4 years. 

 

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It...depends? As a low-profile federal employee, I don't see my salary really being affected. Food prices might go up, in which case I'm kind of hoping they do, which might convince those who voted for him this election cycle to swing back the other way - assuming we'll still have elections while DJT breathes.

As for personal safety, it's not the streets I'm worried about. Call it paranoia, but if Trump decides to form his own Gestapo to go door-to-door on private property to weed out "enemies from within" meaning basically anyone who isn't loyal to him. Pretty sure our Constitution is supposed to protect us from such measures, but I don't think it alone will be enough.