2024 US Election

  On 11/9/2024 at 3:01 AM, Cyteen said:

Curious on your guys' thoughts.

I've seen numerous articles since Tuesday that blame Harris or Biden for the democrats losing this time, but do you really think it was a fault of anything they did or didn't do? And if so, what? Heinz-sight-20/20 and all that, of course.

the Dems are no doubt struggling with finding the next Obama. they trotted out a corpse in 2020, who won because everyone was sick of T's verbal diarrhea style behavior. the corpse did nothing to gain support to the Dem party. no one wants a 100yr old white guy as leader. the corpse deflated so they pivoted to Kamala, who everyone knew as slightly loopy and sucked at running her own campaign. reports of toxic shit in her henhouse when she tried to be pres. But she's better than crazy ass Trump, right? they thought this was enough to beat the worst pres the US has ever had, but they underestimated the level of stupidity that is running rampant amongst Americans (and the world?) thanks to brains no longer being able to see reality clearly because everyone is addicted to their phone all the fucking time, and they think all the BS on social media apps is true.

the dems biggest problem is they didn't realize that the truth no longer matters to the majority of people in this country. they tried to run a campaign based on promoting the greater good, and most normie people no longer give 2 shits about that...only like what's good on Netflix or shit like that. T's campaign is soaked in all that 100% Bullshit, which is what the people want. feed them all lies nonstop and they will believe anything he says. even if it's about eating pets or some shit...they believe it! 

  On 11/9/2024 at 4:26 AM, zero said:

the dems biggest problem is they didn't realize that the truth no longer matters to the majority of people in this country. they tried to run a campaign based on promoting the greater good, and most normie people no longer give 2 shits about that...only like what's good on Netflix or shit like that. T's campaign is soaked in all that 100% Bullshit, which is what the people want. feed them all lies nonstop and they will believe anything he says. even if it's about eating pets or some shit...they believe it! 

Exactly. It's not about policies. Nobody is interested in wonking out on policy. They want to be entertained and cruelty is entertaining.

This book predicted all of this with a lot of precision back in 1985:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death

Talking about TV here but it applies 10x to twitter:

  Quote

The essential premise of the book, which Postman extends to the rest of his argument(s), is that "form excludes the content", that is, a particular medium can only sustain a particular level of ideas. Thus rational argument, integral to print typography, is militated against by the medium of television for this reason. Owing to this shortcoming, politics and religion are diluted, and "news of the day" becomes a packaged commodity. Television de-emphasizes the quality of information in favor of satisfying the far-reaching needs of entertainment, by which information is encumbered and to which it is subordinate.

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Probably worth remembering that trump won't do any of the good things he's promised e.g. bring down inflation or stop wars. But he will do the opposite plus all the bad things he's promised. 

  On 11/9/2024 at 3:01 AM, Cyteen said:

Curious on your guys' thoughts.

I've seen numerous articles since Tuesday that blame Harris or Biden for the democrats losing this time, but do you really think it was a fault of anything they did or didn't do? And if so, what? Heinz-sight-20/20 and all that, of course.

Democrats appealed to voters’ intellect, Republicans appealed to voters’ ignorance. Ignorance won.  

  On 11/9/2024 at 3:01 AM, Cyteen said:

Curious on your guys' thoughts.

I've seen numerous articles since Tuesday that blame Harris or Biden for the democrats losing this time, but do you really think it was a fault of anything they did or didn't do? And if so, what? Heinz-sight-20/20 and all that, of course.

  On 11/8/2024 at 6:36 PM, zero said:

here's an example of what a company will do to avoid the T tariffs:

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/11/07/steve-madden-to-slash-china-sourcing-as-trumps-tariff-plan-looms.html

this is what is so dumb about donald shouting 100% tariffs on China. he says that stuff to get his supporters thinking this will mean more jobs will then come back to the USA and they'll benefit, when in actuality the capitalist machine will find a way to go somewhere other than the countries donald wants to "hit hard" with tariffs, so they can keep selling their products at the same price as today. otherwise they will increase the cost of their goods to pay the tariffs, making the consumers pay more for the item...I guess all that it too explanatory, far too much reality speak, when all he has to do is say "USA GOOD, CHINA BAD" to get the votes!

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Keep in mind that Trump has promised a 10% tariff on all American imports. China and Mexico would be hit with 60% and 25% respectively. The Mexico ones would get especially difficult to process with the new CUSMA FTA and rules around what constitutes a product made in Mexico vs made in Canada. 
 

Any way you slice it, tariffs will make shit more expensive for Americans. And if China and Mexico and other countries enact reciprocal tariffs, that’s less money that goes toward GDP (an admittedly crude measure of a nation’s economic health).  

  On 11/9/2024 at 3:55 AM, ignatius said:

 

they abandoned the working class 30 years ago and have done nothing to try and fix that until like 10 minutes ago.

 

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That tweet you quoted actually brought up a very interesting point, which is that for a lot of the rest of the world, I don’t think of things like public health or better welfare supports as particularly socialist, they just kind of are. 
So I might have a different opinion of what “liberalism” entails (I view it as social policy rather than economic policy), and in turn might suggest that what you call liberals are really just capitalists who are a little nicer to marginalized communities. 
 

With respect to your statement, not only is it kind of too little too late, but they (Dems) can’t even figure out how to promote the shit they did get done. Like the CHIPs Act did a lot for workers and unions, but how many people have heard about it? Federal housing grants, anybody heard about those? Cause the Biden administration shovelled a shit ton of money into a program that is basically that. 
 

But really, looking at the numbers, Dem voters just sat this one out, for a myriad of reasons.

A friend sent me this one. What an incredible split ticket. Apparently Stein got 18% of the presidential votes as well. 
But this is really punching yourself in the face because you’re not happy with your nose. 

  On 11/9/2024 at 12:25 PM, chenGOD said:

A friend sent me this one. What an incredible split ticket. Apparently Stein got 18% of the presidential votes as well. 
But this is really punching yourself in the face because you’re not happy with your nose. 

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dearborn is a majority muslim district, there were stories the day after election day that they voted for trump in protest of biden harris middle east policy.

  On 11/9/2024 at 12:27 PM, decibal cooper said:

dearborn is a majority muslim district, there were stories the day after election day that they voted for trump in protest of biden harris middle east policy.

I’m aware, hence the punching yourself in the face comment. 
Reading a couple of articles about it where people were excited about “Trump stopping the war!” and I’m like yeah, but maybe not in the way you think. 
Also gotta wonder how many have family in the seven countries Trump already enacted a travel ban upon when he was in the White House before. 

imagine people are being baited into calling it a genocide for political purposes

oct 7: massive terrorist attack

following that: idf launches major attacks against hamas

us public: "the motivation must be ethnicity"

frankly the logic is pitiful

do you people even know what you're suggesting?

are you suggesting that the idf is pretending to be carrying out a military response while secretly executing a plot of ethnic cleansing?

do you actually believe that's what's occuring?

jesus fucking christ

of course much of israel are jews, who actually emerged from the worst recent genocide. so this information warfare has a particular cruelty flair to it

do people even know this is a 75 year conflict wherein the losing side just can't admit defeat? and there's an anti-jewish racism that's been baked into that for that 3/4 of a century conflict. 

do people even know that the term palestine refers to a region, and before recent decades there was never a sovereign palestinian state? it was controlled by the british from ww1 to 1948 and the ottoman empire before that. 

the term "palestinian" seems to have gained a new meaning following the 1948 declaration of independence of israel, which was rejected by many in the region, resulting in what israel calls the war of independence and what the opposing side calls the nakba, or great catastrophe. "palestinian" is used for those who refuse to accept israel. there's an element of demonization of israel tracing back to the beginning and i think rooted in racism. the 75 year history of conflict basically seems to be a prolonged, deteriorating situation of one side entrenched in a wrong ideology of insisting on this demonization.

and now americans are perpetuating it.

this is the information warfare perpetuating the conflict.

palestinian kids decide to join hamas because of these inaccurate narratives. this is the real root of the perpetuation of the conflict.

just fyi guys

come at me

genocide requires a motive of ethnicity.

be more careful with info. learn the lesson. we're suffering because of sloppy info handling

for the record i don't like netanyahi, idf brutality, and a lot of other things. not to say i like hamas. anyway "idf brutality under netanyahu" is the term. you're using the wrong word

ITT i'm learning a few things:

• motherfuckers would sell their sister's wombs to the government for $1 off a box of cereal
• Gen Z is really, truly suffering from the brainrot they joke about (re: the decades of a failing public education system? probably? or maybe kids are always just stupid, idk, i've only been an old crotchety jackass for so long, it's a kinda new thing for me...)
• i'm still having to ignore idiots even after the election is over? jfc y'all, get your heads straight, conflict is not good or cool, read a book ffs
• i'm on WATMM too much

  On 11/9/2024 at 2:13 PM, may be rude said:

imagine people are being baited into calling it a genocide for political purposes

oct 7: massive terrorist attack

following that: idf launches major attacks against hamas

us public: "the motivation must be ethnicity"

frankly the logic is pitiful

 

do you people even know what you're suggesting?

are you suggesting that the idf is pretending to be carrying out a military response while secretly executing a plot of ethnic cleansing?

do you actually believe that's what's occuring?

 

jesus fucking christ

 

of course much of israel are jews, who actually emerged from the worst recent genocide. so this information warfare has a particular cruelty flair to it

 

do people even know this is a 75 year conflict wherein the losing side just can't admit defeat? and there's an anti-jewish racism that's been baked into that for that 3/4 of a century conflict. 

 

do people even know that the term palestine refers to a region, and before recent decades there was never a sovereign palestinian state? it was controlled by the british from ww1 to 1948 and the ottoman empire before that. 

 

the term "palestinian" seems to have gained a new meaning following the 1948 declaration of independence of israel, which was rejected by many in the region, resulting in what israel calls the war of independence and what the opposing side calls the nakba, or great catastrophe. "palestinian" is used for those who refuse to accept israel. there's an element of demonization of israel tracing back to the beginning and i think rooted in racism. the 75 year history of conflict basically seems to be a prolonged, deteriorating situation of one side entrenched in a wrong ideology of insisting on this demonization.

 

and now americans are perpetuating it.

 

this is the information warfare perpetuating the conflict.

 

palestinian kids decide to join hamas because of these inaccurate narratives. this is the real root of the perpetuation of the conflict.

 

 

just fyi guys

 

 

come at me

 

 

genocide requires a motive of ethnicity.

 

 

be more careful with info. learn the lesson. we're suffering because of sloppy info handling

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In international legal terms, genocide can be conducted on national, ethnic, racial, or religious grounds. It doesn’t have to be the whole group, and it is not just killing that group. Imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group also qualifies, as does moving children out of the group (hence the use of the term genocide in Canada with respect to the residential schools).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention

  On 11/9/2024 at 2:56 PM, auxien said:

ITT i'm learning a few things:

 

• i'm on WATMM too much

Could be worse, you could be on Twitter or Reddit too much. 

  On 11/9/2024 at 3:08 PM, chenGOD said:

In international legal terms, genocide can be conducted on national, ethnic, racial, or religious grounds. It doesn’t have to be the whole group, and it is not just killing that group. Imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group also qualifies, as does moving children out of the group (hence the use of the term genocide in Canada with respect to the residential schools).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention

thanks, i appreciate the note. i'm familiar with the language. i consider the term ethnicity to be flexible enough to capture either of: national, ethnic, racial or religious.

the biden administration prompted netanyahu to clarify their strategic objective, early in the oct 7 response. the objective was to destroy hamas's military capacity. military responses can be very brutal. i am adamently opposed to the idf brutality under netanyahu

  On 11/9/2024 at 3:13 PM, may be rude said:

thanks, i appreciate the note. i'm familiar with the language. i consider the term ethnicity to be flexible enough to capture either of: national, ethnic, racial or religious.

 

the biden administration prompted netanyahu to clarify their strategic objective, early in the oct 7 response. the objective was to destroy hamas's military capacity. military responses can be very brutal. i am adamently opposed to the idf brutality under netanyahu

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The four terms have clear and distinct meanings, and it is entirely accurate to call what the IDF is doing to the Palestinians a genocide. And I think the word gets tossed around a little too easily at times.

They're obviously not going to come out and say their objective is to commit genocide. Netanyahu is an ass, but he’s not quite dumb enough to admit to committing war crimes. 

  On 11/9/2024 at 3:46 PM, chenGOD said:

The four terms have clear and distinct meanings, and it is entirely accurate to call what the IDF is doing to the Palestinians a genocide. And I think the word gets tossed around a little too easily at times.

the term ethnicity has a very loose definition which can cover those other terms. anyway i'm just clarifying the meaning of my own post.

  On 11/9/2024 at 3:46 PM, chenGOD said:

They're obviously not going to come out and say their objective is to commit genocide. Netanyahu is an ass, but he’s not quite dumb enough to admit to committing war crimes. 

alright well i'm glad that you're explicitly admitting that this is a conspiracy theory you are nursing. you claim netanyahu is secretly orechestrating a plot of genocide against this group, under the guise of carrying out a military operation against an attacking organization. to me, that conclusion is not strongly supported in the public information that i'm familiar with. on the contrary, it is quite evident that a military response of some type was appropriate, and it's not surprising that it was heavy-handed, given the depravity and scale of the terrorist attacks of october 7th, and the urgency of rescuing the hostages.

the broad strategy of hamas to hide behind human shields is a factor in the extent of the devastation of the IDF's attacks, it is relevant to note. 

i'll reiterate that i am adamantly opposed to idf brutality under netanyahu. 

I don’t understand this argument that dems do nothing for the working class. They’ve actually managed to accomplish a lot despite the GOP using every dirty trick in the book to obstruct them since the day Obama was elected. 
 

The bigger problem is that MAGA voters live in an information free bubble and any attempt to improve the lives of ordinary working people is instantly and hysterically attacked as communism. 
 

  On 11/9/2024 at 4:55 PM, kuniklo said:

I don’t understand this argument that dems do nothing for the working class. They’ve actually managed to accomplish a lot despite the GOP using every dirty trick in the book to obstruct them since the day Obama was elected. 
 

The bigger problem is that MAGA voters live in an information free bubble and any attempt to improve the lives of ordinary working people is instantly and hysterically attacked as communism. 

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a number of these early post-mortems i've been seeing about the Harris loss are noting that it wasn't just the MAGA information bubble, but the lack of a Dem front to a) combat that MAGA infobubble on the center/right, as well as b) not communicating well/clearly/accurately/simply/enough about the Dem wins & gains.

the general population of America does not care about these things, they don't keep up, they don't read it if it's more than a 2 sentence post on Facebook. they scroll past the intellectual arguments, Trump & the right won by appealing to the base emotions (even if their information was largely bullshit), anti-trans kneejerk bullshit, & general 'things have sucked kinda for 4 years, i guess it's that incumbent's fault' even tho that was last one was the exact same reason Trump was voted out last time. our memories are short, and we are uninterested and unthinking.

  On 11/9/2024 at 4:55 PM, kuniklo said:

I don’t understand this argument that dems do nothing for the working class. They’ve actually managed to accomplish a lot despite the GOP using every dirty trick in the book to obstruct them since the day Obama was elected. 
 

The bigger problem is that MAGA voters live in an information free bubble and any attempt to improve the lives of ordinary working people is instantly and hysterically attacked as communism. 
 

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they try to do things some times but also make bad choices.. biden picking the railroads over the railroad workers and ending the strike was a bad decision imo. he abandoned the union. Dems have always tried to be a bit more kind and improve the safety net but big picture things they are firmly on the side of corporations and helped structure american work and financial system to benefit those institutions at the expense of workers and the middle class. this has been the trend since?? i don't know as long as i was old enough to pay attention.  but reagan/thatcher eras really kicked off the anti-union stuff in big ways and democrats didnt do a whole lot to really slow it down since. 

only recently did a little life get breathed back into unions but they have their own problems. nothing is perfect. dems like to do what's convenient but as a platform and a party they haven't really gotten their hands dirty except now and then. there's some very pro union working class type representatives/senators who have always fought for the working class.. sometimes against their own party. but most dems, like republicans, are fine being owned by wallstreet and taking that sweet campaign money. 

as for information.. yeah.. there's so many problems there and dominant narratives and ignorance and lies. months ago a guy on my street, who is a teamster, was going door to door to talk about a local candidate for city council. the candidate was a union guy and had been his whole life. organizer, leader etc.. and my neighbor starts talking about how great he is because this candidate doesn't have any wacky socialist ideas. i just nodded because didn't feel like telling him he should look into how unions in america came to be and what the forces behind them were and who those people were and what they believed.. then maybe he wouldn't say dumb shit about wacky socialist ideas.. but i just nodded.. because i didn't want to get into it.

people, generally don't know history especially working class history and it's a shame because it would be inspiring for them to know how bad ass some people were back in the day 

democrats at the after party

ralph nader in good form giving everyone a shlacking. 

so, apparently there was even more sell out of the working class recently.. all the different big labor unions were poised for a big event on labor day to push for momentum leading up to the election and looked for support of the DNC and they said no. fucking crazy. 

nader has never been a fan of the 2 party system or the dems in general.. not for a long time anyways.. so it's interesting to hear his take on things... 

  On 11/9/2024 at 4:36 PM, may be rude said:

alright well i'm glad that you're explicitly admitting that this is a conspiracy theory you are nursing. you claim netanyahu is secretly orechestrating a plot of genocide against this group, under the guise of carrying out a military operation against an attacking organization. to me, that conclusion is not strongly supported in the public information that i'm familiar with.

What in the fuck are you even talking about. They’re not going to admit it verbally but their actions are quite plain to see. 
You need better public  information. Read the summary of the ICJ most recent opinion. https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/186/186-20240719-sum-01-00-en.pdf

there is no point arguing with this clown, he's gonna stay this way. imagine the kind of brain it takes to suggest that Palestinians themselves are joining Hamas and fighting Israel because of "bad narratives" rather than, I dunno, seeing their families being killed while the whole world just watches... just pure fucking online meltbrain, not a shred of real world understanding. even the 'info' being spouted is wrong and misleading.