I am now convinced that capitalism is evil

  On 12/11/2024 at 5:43 PM, chenGOD said:

The janitor is a little bit of hyperbole for sure but what about the actuaries? They’re usually the ones actually denying the claims. They open their tables and determine if paying out ba denying is more beneficial to the company. Does the CEO operate sole executive function? Or are other executives also responsible for the decision making that led to the policies United Healthcare has. If so, should we be out murdering them?

This isn't such a great counter argument that it's made out to be. The fact that these companies operate in a nested, bureaucratic structure that dilutes responsibility is precisely what enables them to do these things and enact morally abhorrent policies as long as they are within the bounds of the law. 

Brian Thompson wasn't chosen for any rational reason other than him being a symbolic figurehead for the worst offender in business at this moment (and said company being a very personal enemy of Mangione). People aren't celebrating murder for murder's sake, but there is a catharsis and symbolic value in vindictive justice against oppressors, just as people always root for Robin Hood outlaws and sympathetic revolutionaries. These company puppets have - in whatever capacity that X'ian philosophy professors care to debate - lives on their conscience and keep getting away with these strategies that are insanely profitable and legal. Street justice isn't renowned for being fair or balanced, but in this case neither is justice according to law, which is why people call for the former. 

  On 12/11/2024 at 6:07 PM, Alcofribas said:

i think it would be a much more valuable use of a tenured professor's time to ask these questions about the current power structure in which such questions are actually relevant, and not stroking his chin about online reactions to a single incident that is basically unprecedented. literally one guy has done this.

i don't really get this discussion about who we should be murdering. let's focus on the systemic suffering and death that the US healthcare system is actually "allowed" to inflict upon innocent people. that's where the outrage should be. seems crazy to me to be upset about how rude it is that people don't give a shit about a dead ceo or whatever. tbh i continue to be shocked this kind of thing does not happen more frequently. the pain that so many americans suffer from idiot greed is unimaginable. very low hanging fruit to make this into a thought experiment about which individuals should be held accountable for a systemic injustice. 

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Again, no arguments on the pain and injustice caused by the US healthcare system. 
 

I don’t think the prof is making it out about which individuals should be responsible. That’s what the general public is saying (CEO responsible, so murder will bring systemic change).

If this sort of thing had happened more frequently, with no policy changes (publicly traded corporations have a fiduciary duty to benefit their shareholders - and paying out all claims ain’t it), what would your response be? 

  On 12/11/2024 at 6:26 PM, chim said:

This isn't such a great counter argument that it's made out to be. The fact that these companies operate in a nested, bureaucratic structure that dilutes responsibility is precisely what enables them to do these things and enact morally abhorrent policies as long as they are within the bounds of the law. 

Brian Thompson wasn't chosen for any rational reason other than him being a symbolic figurehead for the worst offender in business at this moment (and said company being a very personal enemy of Mangione). People aren't celebrating murder for murder's sake, but there is a catharsis and symbolic value in vindictive justice against oppressors, just as people always root for Robin Hood outlaws and sympathetic revolutionaries. These company puppets have - in whatever capacity that X'ian philosophy professors care to debate - lives on their conscience and keep getting away with these strategies that are insanely profitable and legal. Street justice isn't renowned for being fair or balanced, but in this case neither is justice according to law, which is why people call for the former. 

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Right all well and good, but Mangione’s stated goal was to bring about change to the health care system through a violent action. 
 

Do you think he will achieve his stated goal? Instead of wasting his life in prison he could have gone many other routes that may have produced actual, meaningful change. 
 

I’ve already stated my position on the US healthcare system and the CEO being a trash human being. 

  On 12/11/2024 at 6:30 PM, chenGOD said:

Right all well and good, but Mangione’s stated goal was to bring about change to the health care system through a violent action. 
 

Do you think he will achieve his stated goal? Instead of wasting his life in prison he could have gone many other routes that may have produced actual, meaningful change. 
 

I’ve already stated my position on the US healthcare system and the CEO being a trash human being. 

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I absolutely don't think he'll achieve much of anything, and that's my main gripe with Mangione. He's sympathetic but threw away his life for nothing. I'd love to be proven wrong. 

  On 12/11/2024 at 5:53 PM, ignatius said:

for me the take away is "that'll happen" when there's 300 million guns in private hands and the system we live in is cruel and profit driven at every opportunity. it's extremely rare that members of the elite/ruling/capitalist class are held accountable for bad behavior, fraud, theft, scams, negligence etc...

For sure, but as you and Alco both noted, it’s a systemic issue. 
 

so failing to see how murder (which is wrong except in self-defense) of an individual brings about systemic change. 
 

Sure it feels good/cathartic to “get one over on the bad guys”, but at what cost to your own soul/chakra/moral principle/whateveryouwanttocallit. 
 

Anyhow. 2:40 in the AM here so I’m gonna peace out and check replies in the morning I guess. 

  On 12/11/2024 at 6:34 PM, chim said:

I absolutely don't think he'll achieve much of anything, and that's my main gripe with Mangione. He's sympathetic but threw away his life for nothing. I'd love to be proven wrong. 

nothing will change.  blue cross/blue shield was going to stop paying for full amount of anesthesia used in surgeries and walked that back like a day after the UHC CEO was murdered. i suspect they'll go through with it in a few months when this dies down some and slips out of the headlines. 

so, other than elevating the general healthcare situation in people's minds for some length of time.. i don't know if much else will come of it except maybe a copycat or two. 

some people in different places might start asking the right questions.. instead of how did this happen? they'll start asking why it happened. but the healthcare industry is titanic. it takes government regulations to make it change. other than that it won't change at all for the better.. it'll just get worse. 

my health insurance gets more expensive every year with worse coverage. out of pocket maximum and monthly premium increases as well as deductible will go up next year.

monthly premium increased 39%.. from $233 to $320 (and this is considering a $565 monthly subsidy. w/o subsidy my insurance would cost $885 a month), max out of pocket for the year went up from $7500 to $9200. deductible stayed the same at $5500. 

the only reason i can even get insurance is because the ACA was passed which says a person cannot be denied insurance for pre-existing conditions. so, before the ACA my insurance company was kinda like that company in the movie "The Rainmaker".  they were banned from doing business in the state of NY by then Attorney general elliot spitzer (client 9!). 

so, w/o the aca i'd have no insurance. so, if it goes away because of trump and republicans.. i don't know what i'll do.. 

edit: also, i consider myself fortunate and a lot of people are not in a position to have any coverage at all for whatever reason.. or they have coverage from a shitty company like UHC. my insurance company has been pretty good about paying claims and generally not being dicks.. but the system still sucks and makes little sense and is very expensive. 

  On 12/11/2024 at 6:36 PM, chenGOD said:

For sure, but as you and Alco both noted, it’s a systemic issue. 
so failing to see how murder (which is wrong except in self-defense) of an individual brings about systemic change. 

Sure it feels good/cathartic to “get one over on the bad guys”, but at what cost to your own soul/chakra/moral principle/whateveryouwanttocallit. 
Anyhow. 2:40 in the AM here so I’m gonna peace out and check replies in the morning I guess. 

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At this point I think it's silly to argue that this murder will have no impact. Although I can understand why people would think like that. How can a single murder bring systemic change? Who knows. But a single cigarette can start a huge forrest-fire.

Not saying this will happen here, but some revolutions begin with smaller events. How did the Arab Spring start? Or WWI? An avalanche can start very small. If the circumstances are right.

So the question isn't really how a single event can bring systemic change. It's rather whether the context is such that a single event can kickstart systemic change.

And as far as I'm concerned, the proverbial forrest that is the US can be lit on fire pretty easy. Now one might argue that jan 6th was bigger and didn't start a bigger fire, so this murder won't either. But I would argue that the fire of jan 6th is still smouldering. And this murder is just another drop in the bucket.

Short: It's not just about this murder. It's the bigger context.

guy projected the internal suffering that he wasn’t equipped to deal with into the outside world. He chose violence to cope with some shit that did not even reach his conscious mind.

no matter how hard he shaped his body, how good he became at school, he wasn’t enough. He needed to become more, and transformed himself into ridiculous IRL Batman. Hardly heroic.

The answer can probably be found in his family system?

  On 12/11/2024 at 6:55 PM, Satans Little Helper said:

At this point I think it's silly to argue that this murder will have no impact. Although I can understand why people would think like that. How can a single murder bring systemic change? Who knows. But a single cigarette can start a huge forrest-fire.

Not saying this will happen here, but some revolutions begin with smaller events. How did the Arab Spring start? Or WWI? An avalanche can start very small. If the circumstances are right.

So the question isn't really how a single event can bring systemic change. It's rather whether the context is such that a single event can kickstart systemic change.

And as far as I'm concerned, the proverbial forrest that is the US can be lit on fire pretty easy. Now one might argue that jan 6th was bigger and didn't start a bigger fire, so this murder won't either. But I would argue that the fire of jan 6th is still smouldering. And this murder is just another drop in the bucket.

Short: It's not just about this murder. It's the bigger context.

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i can see both sides of things. i find it quite easy to be cynical and think this will just be another sort of black swan event that quickly fades from media attention or internet attention when taylor swift gets pregnant or something and people get more fascinated with celebrity news than other stuff. 

but also there is a culture of thinkers for better or worse that will carry a flag when inspired.. same way timothy mcveigh ended up blowing up a building.. this murder of the UHC CEO might be a sort of link in a chain of events that influence and inspire certain elements of different movements that exist to some degree. how that filters out into mass culture.. idk. no idea. the "one small spark" argument is real and worth considering and one death has been a kick off of all kinds of things in history so who knows what this one will do.. though i don't see it starting WW1 or whatever. 

Yea. Forget the WWI thing. I just put that there, because it "started" with the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. Not to argue Luigi - yeah the guy from super mario bros - might start a next world war.

It's going to be interesting how congress will respond. But more importantly, how "wall street" will respond. Don't think congress will move a single millimeter (going metric!!) if "wall street" doesn't want to.

There was this bit of poetic justice that mr CEO happened to be in New York to talk to his "wall street" investors though. Luigi couldn't have chosen a better moment. If you want "wall street" to notice an immediate threat, he got as far as a single individual could get.

  On 12/11/2024 at 6:26 PM, chenGOD said:

(CEO responsible, so murder will bring systemic change).

that’s what it *feels like* should happen tho. logically, no, of course not…because the system is so huge & blurred as all here have acknowledged…humans aren’t designed to operate in a society of a collective 300+million. we f e e l like in our tribe if someone steps out of line (Brian Johnson/UHC) & is checked for it, that should give a clear line in the sand to others. in a tribe of a hundred or so, that tracks (i’d think?). in a sprawling society with hundreds of layers of laws & separation & millions/billions of $$$ between? meaningless, really.

hope that made some sense if not exactly 100% accurate in my lame example

  On 12/11/2024 at 6:26 PM, chenGOD said:

I don’t think the prof is making it out about which individuals should be responsible. That’s what the general public is saying (CEO responsible, so murder will bring systemic change).

not to harp on this particular issue but i think what the prof is doing completely misses the point. he's creating a thought experiment in which he's attempting to problematize a bunch of hypothetical scenarios like killing a janitor or stealing a car. however, johnson and others with power in the health insurance industry actually make decisions like this. it's how they make profit for their shareholders. so what is the point of the prof responding to a single murder by a lone actor by posing these hypothetical moral dilemmas rather than using his philosophical brain power to tackle dilemmas that are actually occurring? and why isn't he focusing precisely on where real power truly lies? imo this is concern trolling, pretending to care about hypothetical immorality while simultaneously refusing to get his hands dirty by taking on real power and corruption. 

as for systemic change, eh...not looking good for the american system imo. i somehow suspect the political class is rather more sympathetic to uhc's shareholders than their customers. 

  On 12/11/2024 at 10:38 PM, Alcofribas said:

however, johnson and others with power in the health insurance industry actually make decisions like this.

That's the thing though - Johnson doesn't make the day-to-day decisions denying claims. That's the actuaries. The policies aren't set by Johnson all by himself, there is a whole trough of analysts who present options to the executive body and they make a collective decision. It's all very bureaucratic.

The "prof" (he may not be - I can't find him at all through an interweb search) may or may not be concern trolling - without knowing his position on the other aspects that you pointed out we can't make that determination. In my case, I fully recognize that the American healthcare system is incredibly fucked up and causes a lot of pain and suffering, but I still cannot get on board with celebrating murder, even if it is the murder of a POS. I can't even get behind the idea of someone putting a bullet through Muskrat's fully devolved cranium, even though he may be a bigger piece of shit than Trump.

Cathartic as it may be, the murder of the CEO doesn't make American society a better place.

  On 12/12/2024 at 2:54 AM, chenGOD said:

That's the thing though - Johnson doesn't make the day-to-day decisions denying claims. That's the actuaries. The policies aren't set by Johnson all by himself, there is a whole trough of analysts who present options to the executive body and they make a collective decision. It's all very bureaucratic.

The "prof" (he may not be - I can't find him at all through an interweb search) may or may not be concern trolling - without knowing his position on the other aspects that you pointed out we can't make that determination. In my case, I fully recognize that the American healthcare system is incredibly fucked up and causes a lot of pain and suffering, but I still cannot get on board with celebrating murder, even if it is the murder of a POS. I can't even get behind the idea of someone putting a bullet through Muskrat's fully devolved cranium, even though he may be a bigger piece of shit than Trump.

Cathartic as it may be, the murder of the CEO doesn't make American society a better place.

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true but the decisions come from the top or from a board.. not individually about every claim but overall what should happen and what the practice should be for how claims are handled. they had an Ai sifting claims and denying them that had a 90% error rate and they knew all about it and did nothing. 

CEOs know what is going on unless they're just figure heads.. this guy was there for the bottom line and stockholders. number go up means he did a good job.. number go down... no one happy. UHC was super profitable. 

from 2014 to 2024 the stock went from $74 to around $560 per share. gross profits were between $25 billion - $90 billion annually for the last several years.  NET income for 2023 was $22 billion. 

and yeah.. of course his murder doesn't make america a better place.. does it make it any worse?

this dingdong is dumb as rocks. 

  On 12/12/2024 at 2:54 AM, chenGOD said:

That's the thing though - Johnson doesn't make the day-to-day decisions denying claims. That's the actuaries. The policies aren't set by Johnson all by himself, there is a whole trough of analysts who present options to the executive body and they make a collective decision. It's all very bureaucratic.

The "prof" (he may not be - I can't find him at all through an interweb search) may or may not be concern trolling - without knowing his position on the other aspects that you pointed out we can't make that determination. In my case, I fully recognize that the American healthcare system is incredibly fucked up and causes a lot of pain and suffering, but I still cannot get on board with celebrating murder, even if it is the murder of a POS. I can't even get behind the idea of someone putting a bullet through Muskrat's fully devolved cranium, even though he may be a bigger piece of shit than Trump.

Cathartic as it may be, the murder of the CEO doesn't make American society a better place.

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Seems like you’re losing the forrest for the trees. On the one hand by focusing on all the details and complexities of how healthcare insurers operate. (Actuaries deciding on day-to-day claims? What? They’re more on the level of deciding about how high the monthly payments should be for an insurers portfolio. They’re not about the day to day medical stuff - whether something is pre-existing and what not. That’s not what actuaries do. At all!?)

On the other by the ethical stuff regarding the murder of a CEO. Next thing you know we’re getting into a classic discussion about terrorists vs freedom fighters.

The one piece missing is the “wake up call” effect. Which imo is taking place. You can see it in the media, for instance. By seeing media struggling with the narrative themselves. Trying to balance this exact discussion between the ethics of a single murder vs the way the insurance industry operates. (They’re doing a bad job, btw. But that’s another discussion)

Another part of this waking up effect are the reactions on social media. The scale of the anger which is pointed at the industry. (At this point it is about simply observing the scale, not about a moral judgment about those reactions. I mean, the comments about the joy/glee that is in some comments is really missing the point, imo)

And there is also the part that is less visible because it’s not on social media. That is the part where everyone involved is getting on terms with a new reality. This is a moment where a lot of people will make up their mind about what happened, and why, and what it means. That’s us. But also the people working at insurers. Or in governments. Basically everyone within the system. And if we’re going to theorize about all the factors required for systemic change, I can predict one aspect we can agree on. And that is the part where everyone involved in the system needs to be aware of some thing. Of course, systemic change requires more. But I hope we can agree on this one thing. And that is that awareness of the event has been spread throughout the entire system. The effect is still unknown at this point. But again, the people saying nothing will happen (system will continue as before) are just as much speculating as the people arguing otherwise. (Read: better to sit back and watch as opposed to foolishly try to look smart by predicting what will happen. Or by pointing the moral finger to the way people respond)

  On 12/12/2024 at 2:54 AM, chenGOD said:

I still cannot get on board with celebrating murder, even if it is the murder of a POS.

i don’t think celebration is necessary to acknowledge that a bad thing which has happened may be a good in some ways.

  On 12/12/2024 at 2:54 AM, chenGOD said:

Cathartic as it may be, the murder of the CEO doesn't make American society a better place.

i’m not saying this as hyperbole: i honestly think it’s too early to say. things like this could have a ripple effect which ends up swiftly or slowly making American society a better place. 

it’s pretty unlikely, sure, but this could lead to some honest betterment of the country. it’s hard to make people care about anything, collectively, but hatred of the healthcare systems vampirism & general disgust with the wealthy over the last few years (by some large portion of the population at least) are both tied up in this situation (not to mention a number of other issues, but anyway)

  On 12/12/2024 at 3:29 AM, ignatius said:

true but the decisions come from the top or from a board

Right - from a board. Do we know how every board member voted? Do we gotta get em all?

  On 12/12/2024 at 3:29 AM, ignatius said:

of course his murder doesn't make america a better place.. does it make it any worse?

Morally, yes, in my opinion.

  On 12/12/2024 at 4:42 AM, Satans Little Helper said:

Actuaries deciding on day-to-day claims? What? They’re more on the level of deciding about how high the monthly payments should be for an insurers portfolio. They’re not about the day to day medical stuff - whether something is pre-existing and what not. That’s not what actuaries do. At all!?

Right - I meant adjusters, not actuaries. My bad on that.

  On 12/12/2024 at 4:42 AM, Satans Little Helper said:

On the other by the ethical stuff regarding the murder of a CEO. Next thing you know we’re getting into a classic discussion about terrorists vs freedom fighters

I don't think the two are really comparable - murdering a CEO is not the same as fighting an oppressive foreign military whose aim is to take away a nation's sovereignty.

  On 12/12/2024 at 4:42 AM, Satans Little Helper said:

And there is also the part that is less visible because it’s not on social media. That is the part where everyone involved is getting on terms with a new reality. This is a moment where a lot of people will make up their mind about what happened, and why, and what it means. That’s us. But also the people working at insurers. Or in governments. Basically everyone within the system. And if we’re going to theorize about all the factors required for systemic change, I can predict one aspect we can agree on. And that is the part where everyone involved in the system needs to be aware of some thing. Of course, systemic change requires more. But I hope we can agree on this one thing. And that is that awareness of the event has been spread throughout the entire system. The effect is still unknown at this point. But again, the people saying nothing will happen (system will continue as before) are just as much speculating as the people arguing otherwise.

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People were well aware of the ills of the American healthcare system long before this. I'm saying the system will not change because of this event. People like AOC, Bernie Sanders, Pete Buttigieg etc. will be the ones who make the system change.

  On 12/11/2024 at 6:30 PM, chenGOD said:

Right all well and good, but Mangione’s stated goal was to bring about change to the health care system through a violent action. 
 

Do you think he will achieve his stated goal? Instead of wasting his life in prison he could have gone many other routes that may have produced actual, meaningful change. 
 

I’ve already stated my position on the US healthcare system and the CEO being a trash human being. 

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The Japanese guy that killed Abe made change happen. It doesn't always happen immediately. The sense of public disgust at private healthcare is widespread. This bought that to the fore. Problem is lack of ability of mainstream media to want to accept the problem. To save the public from curable issues is normal in many developed countries. Never in doubt. 

  On 12/12/2024 at 5:48 AM, chenGOD said:

People were well aware of the ills of the American healthcare system long before this. I'm saying the system will not change because of this event. People like AOC, Bernie Sanders, Pete Buttigieg etc. will be the ones who make the system change.

I’m honestly surprised you’re saying this. People like aoc etc can or do have a part in this. No discussion. But it really doesnt make sense to single them out this way. I mean, if they had this much influence, we wouldn’t have been in this situation to begin with. Right?
Yes I understand the “system” is built on laws. And that laws are made by lawmakers. But all that stuff tends to happen *in response* to the outside world. And at this point the question should be about the impact of this event on this “outside world”. And whether this changes the politics. You argue it won’t. I argue it could. In theory.
 

Again, silly to be so sure of yourself at this point. But you do you. Growing tired of walking in circles here.
 

  On 12/12/2024 at 5:48 AM, chenGOD said:

Right - from a board. Do we know how every board member voted? Do we gotta get em all?

someone probably does. but corporate structure of such a massive company and notes of corporate meetings is certainly beyond casual information. 

  On 12/12/2024 at 5:48 AM, chenGOD said:

Morally, yes, in my opinion.

worse than arming a country doing a genocide? worse than the last 100 years of atrocities? or even that last 50 years? laying waste to SE asia? i know.. it's a different thing and there's nuance and context and subtext and all the things... 

there's an extra 'newsworthy' aspect of this murder for many reasons but it's hard not to think of 50 shootings in chicago over a weekend and think that constant occurrence all over america year in and year out isn't a bit more weight, morally, than one dead ceo shot on camera by a disgruntled person.  CEO assassination = sensationalism..  50,000 gun deaths a year = business as usual.  america has morals when it's convenient and many americans embrace that same thing every day. many don't and i get it.. that's what we're talking about. but this CEO murder is another in a many thousands of tiny cuts. 

  On 12/12/2024 at 6:44 AM, prdctvsm said:

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Although the media currently seems to push the narrative that there is something wrong with people who think like that, he does have a point. Or, how should I put it; he pointed to an inconvenient truth.

  On 12/12/2024 at 7:01 AM, Satans Little Helper said:

Although the media currently seems to push the narrative that there is something wrong with people who think like that, he does have a point. Or, how should I put it; he pointed to an inconvenient truth.

 

And they fail to highlight the part where he says that the unabomber was rightfully imprisoned. 
if Luigi’s lawyer is sharp and prone to commentary and “clap backs” this trial, if there is one, will knock trump out of the headlines. 
America loves a good court case where people can choose sides. Ugh. Media frenzy.