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RIP to WATMM Discussion thread


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“Ah, what is the nature of human creations if not fleeting and fragile, much like human life itself? A forum such as this is nothing more than the temporary fruit of the will, which constantly strives for expression, gathering, and sharing that which seems worthy of attention. Yet everything that has come into being is destined for ruin. Transience is the rule of this world, and every human community, no matter how harmonious, carries within it the seed of its own end. However, what must be observed is the tireless will of these members to resist the end and find ways for the community to endure. This will, as the fundamental force that drives the entire universe, never rests; one forum may be extinguished, but a new platform, a new form of connection, is born. In art, including that electronic music we value, humanity briefly finds solace from its eternal suffering. Yet even art cannot alter the nature of the world; it can only offer an escape from it. Therefore, if the forum must vanish, let this not dishearten us. Our will to remain connected will be enough to shape a new world, even if only a temporary one. For anything that lasts longer than a moment is already an exception in the realm of transience.”

— forever yours, Arthur Schopenhauer 

  On 2/1/2025 at 2:18 PM, Xenabite said:

I've seen threads you people wouldn't believe. Autechre posts on fire off the shoulder of their subforum. I watched Dank Memes glitter in the dark near the General Banter Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.

 

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  On 2/1/2025 at 2:18 PM, Xenabite said:

I've seen threads you people wouldn't believe. Autechre posts on fire off the shoulder of their subforum. I watched Dank Memes glitter in the dark near the General Banter Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.

 

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  On 2/1/2025 at 2:18 PM, Xenabite said:

I've seen threads you people wouldn't believe. Autechre posts on fire off the shoulder of their subforum. I watched Dank Memes glitter in the dark near the General Banter Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.

 

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  On 1/29/2025 at 6:26 PM, zero said:

what exactly do you want to look at in the archives?

 

  Quote

Even though they're not my absolute favourite group, I own more TD than any other band. As it's a mega-thread, it deserves some mega-posts, so here's my rundown of their main studio (and 100% original material live) albums. I'm not touching the soundtracks, as I don't know them so well (I've listened to all the commercially released ones once or twice, but never owned them).

 

The Pink Years

I actually have a 2CD compilation of this entitled Sunrise in the Third System which contains a considerable portion of the material from each album, simply because I rarely fancy listening to any of the albums in their entirety. Electronic Meditation - great chaotic kraut-psych stuff, totally un-electronic (despite the name). Not often in the mood, but the opening two tracks are particularly excellent. Alpha Centauri is a more spacious version of the sound, pretty far out for 1971. Zeit is definitely the highlight of this era, a stunning dark album totally devoid of rock music. 'Birth of Liquid Plejades', with its droning cellos and Florian Fricke on Moog, is a monumental piece. Atem feels like a bit of a creative dead end to me. More emphasis on rhythm and density, but mostly jarring and totally lacking the trance-like nature of their best material. Admirably experimental, but one of my least favourites.

 

The Virgin Years

Rightfully lauded as their creative peak. Almost every album from this era is gold. Obviously Phaedra is beyond comparison for its originality and sheer atmosphere - incredible that the title track came about by pure chance and inadvertently created the entire Berlin-School genre which went on to shape new age and trance in the long run - but Rubycon is the superior of the two for me. One of the all-time peaks of ambient music, just stunningly beautiful, effortlessly veering from starkly scary to lush and euphoric. Ricochet is a bit of an awkward transitional record - not a big fan of the rockier first side - but the second side is impressive solely for being an example of how far you could push sequencer-based music. It's no surprise they moved away from this sound after it, as I don't think they could have done anything else or gone further with the sequence-led approach. Utterly intense, hypnotic music. Stratosfear introduces a much more thematic, melody-led approach with hints of prog; I love the inclusion of piano, harpsichord, harmonica etc. Gives it a creepy, baroque feel. Encore, as a live document and a farewell to the Frose / Franke / Baumann lineup, is fine, but it's too heavy on the soloing for my taste. I know Cyclone has its fans, but for me it's the first of a run of albums that really showed how bad TD + vocals is. Really just a bad Pink Floyd ripoff with some sequencer sections thrown in. Force Majeure returns to form, picking up the melody-driven sound of Stratosfear and going with it full pelt. Pretty intense album, lots of huge tunes and a rare example of the band showing a sense of humour at the end of the title track. 'Thru Metamorphic Rocks' is wonderful proto-techno.

The arrival of Johannes Schmoelling gives them a real revitalisation, moving away from darker sounds to gorgeous, emotive pieces that wonderfully capture both euphoria and melancholia brilliantly. His debut is on Tangram, my favourite TD album. Just one of the most lush sounding albums ever recorded. The opening five minutes is particularly beautiful. I once heard Exitdescribed as the band doing a showcase for film studios, and it definitely foreshadows their soundtrack work which, in turn, helped shape the sound of film scores throughout the '80s. There are some wonderful tracks - the haunting title track and 'Kiew Mission', as well as their best pop piece, 'Choronzon' (which always sticks in my head for days), but it does kind of feel like a selection of works knocked together. White Eagle is one of my least favourite - way too much improv soloing on the first side - but the title track is delicately pretty and 'Convention of the 24' is a marvellously moody piece. Their final albums of this era, the trio of Logos, Hyperborea and Poland, are really stunning. Incorporating samples, wonderful digital synths, pre-house usage of the TR-808 and some really evocative melodies, it's incredible to think all three were recorded in the space of less than a year. It's the last time the band sounded truly ahead of their time, and they went out in style.

 

The Blue Years

Starting with Poland, their move to Jive started well but is notable for making a decline in the band's music and fortunes, as well as a staggeringly high number of film scores. Le Parc, their second album on the label and last with Schmoelling involved, is much poppier than anything they'd done to date, at nine tracks. As a fan of '80s pop I really like it, but it's hard to deny that it's somewhat generic in sound (some pieces could be backing tracks to pop songs of the day). Paul Haslinger joined for Underwater Sunlight, which I love, but once again really shows its age with bombastic '80s rock production. Vocal album #2, Tyger, isn't worth a listen at all, although the video album recorded the same year, Canyon Dreams, has some very pretty pieces on. The rich analogue sound has disappeared altogether by this point, and it's all tinny FM synths and early computer sequencing, meaning it's all sounding pretty rigid by this point. Livemiles ends the Blue Years, and Chris Franke's time with the band, with a mix of some truly inspired melodies and hideously dated sounds (that FM slap bass has no place in TD).

 

The Melrose Years

The first Froese / Haslinger album, Optical Race, is strangely one of my favourites. It lacks almost everything TD are recognisable for - it's a very rigidly programmed instrumental pop album - but the tunes are great. Other than the title track, which sounds like the theme to a shit game show. Lily on the Beach followed in similar style, with a slightly looser sound, some very forgettable pieces and way more guitar solos. Cheesy as fuck but pretty fun in places, and 'Long Island Sunset' is a gorgeous piece. The introduction of Edgar's son Jerome on one track, a saxophone solo, and the daft title of opener 'Too Hot for My Chinchilla' look ahead to the '90s. Melrose finishes the trio from this era with Jerome joining as a full-time member. Again some great melodic tracks, but also a number of forgettable noodling pieces of new age. The poppy approach from two years prior has almost disappeared by this point.

 

The Seattle Years.

Down to the father-son duo of Edgar and Jerome Froese, TD sign to new age label Miramar for their least new age-sounding work, and what is almost universally agreed to be their low point. The late '80s was far from their peak, but they still had some good pop tunes to back it up. For the most part, the early '90s finds the group playing with the same old FM synth sounds, topped with endless soloing by the two Froeses alongside various guest guitarists, and sax solos from Linda Spa. Rockoon has a few decent tracks - opener 'Big City Dwarves', 'Touchwood', the title track - and has a fairly consistent moody production throughout, but is mostly forgettable. The live album 220 Volt is in similar territory, but with a punchier production. Features a hideously awkward version of Hendrix's 'Purple Haze'. Turn of the Tides is the band's nadir, a tuneless void of endless guitar shredding, dated synth sounds and unrealistic drum samples. Tyranny of Beauty picks things up a little, with Jerome bringing in some techno influences, particularly in the rhythms which now at least sound electronic.

1996's Goblins Club is a bit of an orphan album, their only release on Castle before going independent (Castle picked up their contract by being given rights to the Pink and Blue years). It's the best of this era by far, with fewer solos and much more in the way of electronic production and samples, as well as a few very memorable pieces. Average at best, but at least listenable.

 

The Millennium Years

After a few years of new age video soundtracks and scores for TV documentaries nobody seems to be able to track down, 1999's Mars Polaris finds the duo recording an album that actually sounds like Tangerine Dream again. Longer pieces, dark spacey moods, a fully electronic production. Jerome brings in some of the techno and jungle elements he'd experimented with on the Dream Mixes compilations, and even Edgar's fondness for the same old FM presets is at least tempered somewhat. The Seven Letters From Tibet, Edgar's tribute to his recently deceased wife, is almost a beautiful ambient record, but the production veers too heavily into new age for it to be anywhere near as affecting as it should be. The Dante Trilogy that followed is mostly guff - three double albums forming an absurdly long electronic opera, complete with various aria and choral sections, that all sound the fucking same - although some of the instrumental sections of Purgatorio are fantastic, and the whole project is at least admirably daring and different. 2005's Jeanne D'Arc, the only album with the lineup of Edgar, Jerome and Thorsten Quaeschning, finishes the Millennium Years on the band's own TDI label in style. Epic, hugely emotional sweeping pieces, the group's most melodic and affecting material since Johannes Schmoelling was involved.

 

The Eastgate Years

This is the point where Tangerine Dream became a bit of a factory line, churning out music at a ridiculous rate, most of it Edgar solo material. He referred to it as a diary approach, which translates as 'no quality control'. Another vocal album disaster in the electronic prog of The Madcap Laughs (a well-meaning but hilariously ill fitting tribute to Syd Barrett) was followed by the stunning Springtime in Nagasaki, the first in a five-part suite called The Five Atomic Seasons. Edgar's side of Springtime is a decent set of classic TD-style sequencer tracks, but it's Thorsten's side that really makes this - Persistence of Memory Parts 4-6, the first two of which are incredible ambient post-rock, the last an epic sounding synthpop banger. Edgar took the second in the series, Summer in Nagasaki, as a solo album, which did a reasonable job of building up the tension foreshadowing the atomic bomb blast of the city (the moment of it actually hitting is chillingly understated, not a phrase often associated with Tangerine Dream). The remaining three parts of the series, Autumn in Hiroshima, Winter in Hiroshima and The Endless Season are increasingly bland and forgettable, relying on the exact same synth sounds and compositional ideas time and time again. Increased use of electric guitar doesn't help (particularly one track on Autumn, which combines new age pads with shredding). 

A number of 'cupdiscs' (the band's term for EPs and mini-albums that are suitable length for drinking a cup of coffee or tea) are similarly dull, with the occasional good track, although the three track Purple Diluvial is excellent, helped by the significant presence of Thorsten once more. Views From a Red Train is the last album of the era to feature a solid band lineup, with drums and guitar on everything. Better produced and composed than the Seattle Years material, but frequently as tedious. The two parts of Chandra - The Phantom Ferry are pretty decent. The first half of the first album is probably the most experimental and fascinating music put out as TD since the early '80s, with a great range of textures and moods, but the second half fades into new age pap. The second is more consistent but less surprising: a nice set of melancholic ambient pieces. 

The four Sonic Poems are a great example of the quantity of quality nature of the Eastgate Years. Despite being supposedly inspired by four totally different novels, all four have a very similar feel, with minor key chugging sequencer tracks punctuated by the occasional experimental abstract piece. Many of the best pieces feature Thorsten, as usual, and a compilation of the best bits of all four albums would be up there with the group's all-time greats. Instead, there are simply four long, underwhelming albums with great moments scattered throughout. 2013's The Castle, inspired by the Franz Kafka novel, is the best of the four.

 

The Quantum Years

Throwing out the fairly arbitrary 'series' releases, removing all the guest drummers, guitarists, saxophonists and vocalists, and bringing in Ulrich Schnauss to form a trio of synth players - Froese / Schnauss / Quaeschning - to finish off the Tangerine Dream project in 2017 on the 50th year of the band in a 'synth trio' style reminiscent of the band's peak years seems like, despite his many questionable creative decisions, Edgar still knew what the heart of TD was and what made it great. The first album of this era, Mala Kunia, is beautiful, with Ulrich bringing a new textural element to the band, and even Edgar's solo pieces sounding more focused than usual. And then the bastard went and died. I've never been so upset by a celebrity death before or since - the only time I've ever cried at one. He was getting frail - footage of him on stage showed an old, skinny guy where a more built, confident man stood only a few years prior - so he was probably ill and knew it. He'd explained his plans for The Quantum Years to his wife, and she helped Thorsten and Ulrich complete those plans, incorporating his own demos for the album. The only main release so far, the Quantum Key EP, is incredible, four blistering pieces of shimmering, energetic electronica that sound both like classic TD and completely contemporary at the same time. Last year's Particles EP included some live recordings, a studio improv and a cover of the Stranger Things theme as a nice nod to the inspiration that soundtrack took from TD. The previews of Quantum Gate, out later this year, all sound great so far, and I'm confident it will be a brilliant way to say goodbye to Edgar. There's an album-length cupdisc to accompany Edgar's biography, out later this month, and another disc of extras from recent recording sessions to accompany the album, and if they're anywhere near as good as the other releases then The Quantum Years could well be the best era of the band since they left Virgin in 1983.

 

I do hope they call it quits after the end of the year though. Completing Edgar's vision for Quantum Gate is wonderful and hugely respectful to him and a great way to commemorate his life and the band, but continuing on afterwards I don't think it'll really be Tangerine Dream. TD without Edgar isn't really TD.

 

 

tl;dr: pretty good band.

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  On 4/17/2013 at 2:45 PM, Alcofribas said:

afaik i usually place all my cum drops on scientifically sterilized glass slides which are carefully frozen and placed in trash cans throughout the city labelled "for women ❤️ alco" with my social security and phone numbers.

I understand the desire to avoid shouldering the cost. I understand the lack of interest in being responsible for keeping the peace. I also understand the desire to avoid sullying the WATMM 'brand' (so to speak). I also understand that people grow up, interests change, priorities change - it happened to me. It's why I don't mod at Twoism anymore.

What I don't understand, however, is the idea that there is not a single member of this board's hardcore audience that could be trusted to carry on WATMM's legacy.

I know we have technical talent on this board. I know we still have many people here who are passionate about electronic music, no matter how active the IDM pantheon may be these days or in the future.

I know huge slashes of this forum's content is just trolling and taking the piss. But there's also a massive archive of IDM history here, information I'm not confident can be found anywhere else.

I just feel like this is a tragedy happening in slow motion. There has to be an alternative.

 

 

Edited by thedisavowed
  On 2/1/2025 at 5:26 PM, usagi said:

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백호야~~~항상에 사랑할거예요.나의 아들.

 

Shout outs to the saracens, musulmen and celestials.

 

  On 2/1/2025 at 5:33 PM, chenGOD said:

 

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  On 4/17/2013 at 2:45 PM, Alcofribas said:

afaik i usually place all my cum drops on scientifically sterilized glass slides which are carefully frozen and placed in trash cans throughout the city labelled "for women ❤️ alco" with my social security and phone numbers.

  On 2/1/2025 at 5:26 PM, usagi said:

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Thank you for giving me opportunity to talk about Danzig, particularly in his defense. 
I love literally everything he did up until about 1994, coinciding with the departure of his drummer, Chuck Biscuits (one of my favorite drummers of all time). He also made an electronic album in 1992 (the same year as Richard’s first releases… for the record, I’m just stating a fact, not implying it’s a good album, but I loved it when it came out). He also wrote songs for Roy Orbison and Johnny Cash (again, not saying they’re great songs, just stating facts… his song for Roy was basically an In Dreams clone). 
Is he a douche, definitely. Can he craft a good tune, definitely. He is both the yin and the yang. 

 

Edited by J3FF3R00

Since I hit my 40s I don't feel shit anymore so yeah, just tell me where the dank memes thread will be meeting up and I'll be fine.

Can I get an export/archive of all my posts based on GDPR? I have been using WATMM in a personal/individual capacity, so I should be able to download all of my data somewhere, somehow. Not that I will resort to any legal hijinxery, but that would be a nice option, because this place is like a diary that does dialogue, and some of the writing's pretty good, too, and I'd like to have them for posterity.

Edited by dcom

It Doesn't Matter™
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
dcomμnications (WATMM blog, mostly about non-IDM releases, maybe something else, too.)

 

WATMM helped me through my divorce a couple years ago - probably the worst period of my life, was suicidal, etc.  I didn't have many people to talk to about it in the real world and everyone here was super supportive and gave thoughts and comments.  So this place will definitely hold a special place in my heart.  It gave me back a bit of faith in humanity, strangers all over the world came to my aid when they had no real reason to.

I will be sad to see it go.  

 

 

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  On 2/1/2025 at 5:31 PM, thedisavowed said:

I understand the desire to avoid shouldering the cost. I understand the lack of interest in being responsible for keeping the peace. I also understand the desire to avoid sullying the WATMM 'brand' (so to speak). I also understand that people grow up, interests change, priorities change - it happened to me. It's why I don't mod at Twoism anymore.

What I don't understand, however, is the idea that there is not a single member of this board's hardcore audience that could be trusted to carry on WATMM's legacy.

I know we have technical talent on this board. I know we still have many people here who are passionate about electronic music, no matter how active the IDM pantheon may be these days or in the future.

I know huge slashes of this forum's content is just trolling and taking the piss. But there's also a massive archive of IDM history here, information I'm not confident can be found anywhere else.

I just feel like this is a tragedy happening in slow motion. There has to be an alternative.

 

 

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it is a minor tragedy happening in slow motion.  its not even that the owner of the ball we share is bored and wants to take it away and go home.  we could just get a new ball in that case.  its more that the owner of a swath of land in which a rich garden has been grown, has decided he wants to burn it down, salt the land, and create a parking lot. 

i don't think it's a foregone conclusion yet on what is going to happen.  it simply can't be.  because I refuse to believe that Joyrex is that much of an asshole, he's got to be a decent person, and a decent person wouldn't do this in this way

  On 2/1/2025 at 5:31 PM, thedisavowed said:

I understand the desire to avoid shouldering the cost. I understand the lack of interest in being responsible for keeping the peace. I also understand the desire to avoid sullying the WATMM 'brand' (so to speak). I also understand that people grow up, interests change, priorities change - it happened to me. It's why I don't mod at Twoism anymore.

What I don't understand, however, is the idea that there is not a single member of this board's hardcore audience that could be trusted to carry on WATMM's legacy.

I know we have technical talent on this board. I know we still have many people here who are passionate about electronic music, no matter how active the IDM pantheon may be these days or in the future.

I know huge slashes of this forum's content is just trolling and taking the piss. But there's also a massive archive of IDM history here, information I'm not confident can be found anywhere else.

I just feel like this is a tragedy happening in slow motion. There has to be an alternative.

 

 

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Well, it doesn't matter who stays here cuz Joyrex wants everything to be erased and that's it. That's his Shit™. Deal with it.

  On 2/1/2025 at 10:04 PM, Ivy Zemura yvI oo ii oo said:

it is a minor tragedy happening in slow motion.  its not even that the owner of the ball we share is bored and wants to take it away and go home.  we could just get a new ball in that case.  its more that the owner of a swath of land in which a rich garden has been grown, has decided he wants to burn it down, salt the land, and create a parking lot. 

i don't think it's a foregone conclusion yet on what is going to happen.  it simply can't be.  because I refuse to believe that Joyrex is that much of an asshole, he's got to be a decent person, and a decent person wouldn't do this in this way

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100% with you, fuck this shit, for real...

  On 2/1/2025 at 10:04 PM, Ivy Zemura yvI oo ii oo said:

it is a minor tragedy happening in slow motion.  its not even that the owner of the ball we share is bored and wants to take it away and go home.  we could just get a new ball in that case.  its more that the owner of a swath of land in which a rich garden has been grown, has decided he wants to burn it down, salt the land, and create a parking lot. 

i don't think it's a foregone conclusion yet on what is going to happen.  it simply can't be.  because I refuse to believe that Joyrex is that much of an asshole, he's got to be a decent person, and a decent person wouldn't do this in this way

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Yeah tbh I'm starting to agree with you

day 1 posting Tycho videos every day until Joypapa decides to hand over the site to someone else 

#nevernotWATMM #TychoSaveWATMMTalk2Joyrex #SaveWATMM4Ever #WATMMNeverDieCrew #4WATMMEverNow #WeAlwayswillbeTheMusicMakers #forumdotwatmmdotcom

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